- From: Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 12:06:21 -0400
- To: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <4DCC057D.7050301@w3.org>
Minutes of the 12 May 2011 HTML Accessibility Task Force meeting are
posted to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html and copied
below.
HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
12 May 2011
See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-irc>
Attendees
Present
Michael_Cooper, JF, Janina_Sajka, Steve_Faulkner, Judy, MikeSmith,
paulc, Marco_Ranon, Cynthia_Shelly, Eric, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Regrets
Chair
Janina_Sajka
Scribe
MichaelC
Contents
* Topics <http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
1. Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage
<http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
2. Text Subteam Issues
http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html
<http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item02>
3. Next week
<http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#item03>
* Summary of Action Items
<http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-html-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<trackbot> Date: 12 May 2011
<janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
<janina> agenda: this
<janina> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
<janina> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/EnTitle
<mranon> zackim, P7 is me
<scribe> scribe: MichaelC
<scribe> chair: Janina_Sajka
jf: multitrack mostly wrapped up
Subteam Reports: Media; Canvas; Bug Triage
== media ==
discussion ongoing about text alternatives for video element
js: request for stable URI for <missed>
also need to work on navigational concerns
== canvas ==
<nobody present>
== bug triage ==
mr: bug triage processed pending tf decision bugs this week
gave a few the a11ytf keyword, not many
gave rationales for each
no major highlights
== ARIA mapping ==
cs: first discussion about HTML API map document just before this call
lots of work to do
have identified starter points
js: that meets just before this call?
cs: yes, for now
js: need help?
cs: yes
splitting time between HTML API map, and ARIA API map
js: good, looking to publish HTML implementation guide in June
Text Subteam Issues http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html
<judy> Text Alternatives Sub-Team -- recent meeting:
http://www.w3.org/2011/05/09-text-minutes.html
jb: 7-8 issues on the table
<lists too fast to scribe>
jf: re meta name = generator
<JF>
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposal/meta_name=generator_does_not_make_missing_alt_conforming
leif has done a lot of work
creating a change proposal in wiki
still work to do
<Stevef> rich will try to join later
jb: expect work in near future?
jf: yes, but more to do in wiki
jb: role=presentation
being dealt with by bugs
cs: talked with Rich, think ok to allow null alt as equivalent to
role=presentation
concern about case in which there is non-null alt plus role=presentation
author doesn't know what they're doing in this case
talked with david singer
<JF> +q
since this doesn't truly break anything, think it's a validation warning
/ accessibility evaluation issue
not a validator error
jb: need to check support for this?
... over to Steve for title
Leif making a case
sf: he has made a change proposal, discussion going on
jb: ready for discussion within tf?
sf: yes
jb: figcaption
would like to take off urgent track
recognize not everyone wants to do that, but many do
cs: taking off urgent track is good
jb: longdesc
were looking for a stablized proposal from Laura
kept getting additional suggestions
want to do consensus check on proposal as it stands at the moment
jb: poster alt
jf: being discussed in media subteam
alternative text for paused video
same problem from different angle
active discussion, strong divide in opinion
there is [candidate?] formal objection to chair decision on poster alt
not pursuing further at moment
jb: table summary
gregory working on, but out this week
probably taking off urgent path
jb: location of alt guidance
clear disagreement with HTML WG decision
probably will address on non-urgent basis
jb: for today: 1) alt validation title 2) longdesc
but first, bug support issue
cs: role=presentation we meant not to impact alt requirements
but after discussion we view as not a big deal
do we need to push more?
jf: if <img src=foo alt=important role=presentation> which wins?
cs: role=presentation wins
but it's author error
from a validation perspective it's allowed
might be a warning
note validator doesn't know if alt is important
changing requirements won't affect prevalence of this kind of error
topic under discussion was expanding things could be given name, not
restricting alt
js: leif noted this could be used to hide ascii art
cs: not sure ascii art in alt would work...
can see cases where having both alt and role makes sense
can't flag every case, if it makes sense sometimes
so would have to look for non-null string, which makes validation quite
complex
therefore moves into warning territory
jf: agree sounds like warning
but important to capture the point
js: proposal to file bug
cs: having warning gives a hook
jb: sounds like this is execution of action for CS and RS to discuss
still needs to come back into text sub-team
not consensus there yet, needs further discussion
cs: worried about differing from WAI CG consensus document, because of
perception of flip-flopping
jb: need further conversation on that
group yesterday considered new info
Monday seemed pretty strong consensus on a proposal except for Leif
jb: moving on to title
cs: ok with either there
<LeifHSilli> Just want to note the question I consider most important:
Does e.g. @aria-labelledby=foo win over empty @alt=""? If empty @alt
equals role=presentation, then empty @alt should win. However, ARIA says
that aria-labelledby wins. See
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0290
sf: Leif and I disagreed on what was meant by device independence
<something about input devices>
asked vendors, got inconclusive responses
looked at Webkit, when @title and not(@alt) it falls back to title
but title shouldn't be a repair mechanism, it should be a visible caption
or at least available to all, not to some people some times
<JF> +1 to Steve
no requirement in HTML 5 that content be available in input device
independent manner
filed a bug a year ago
was rejected
<re needing mouse to display title>
jb: questions?
objections to supporting proposal?
<janina> +1
<mranon> +1
<judy> please indicate in IRC who is supporting Steve's title proposal
<janina> +1
<mranon> +1
<judy> +1
<JF> +1 to steves proposal
rs: what are problems viewed with Leif's proposal?
sf: about accessible name property in AAPIs
<paulc> Where is Steve's proposal? Link please.
<janina> Referenced in the agenda for today ...
main diff from my proposal is that title used as fallback to alt
rs: that's just webkit, right?
<paulc> Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle
sf: don't want to promote that approach
rs: clarification?
sf: my proposal says title and alt should not be displayed in same way
rs: title used specifically for tooltip on mouseover
advisory text
<JF> +q to this topic
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say ARIA pretty explicitly allows title
as last resort http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#namecalculation
mc: ARIA allows title as last resort
sf: yes for accessible name
but shouldn't impact graphical rendering
jf: there's an issue of conventional behaviors vs specified behaviors
lots of screen readers by default ignore title
because of redundancy with alt in legacy content
because back in the day @alt wasn't rendered to tooltip so authors put
in both places
jb: any change in support for Steve's proposal after this discussion?
rs: support
my understanding is Leif's is to have @title rendered when images turned off
that's not something I support
important to separate functionality of alt and title
jb: proposing change?
<JF> akc JF
rs: supporting Steve's
<Zakim> JF, you wanted to this topic
<richardschwerdtfe> I support Steve Faulkner's proposal
<richardschwerdtfe> on title
pc: note Leif not here
js: was on Monday, other discussions
pc: proposal has a number of "new information"
is there a companion rationale to reopen decision?
<judy> Leif, do you at this point object to Steve's proposal on title?
jb: embedded, think Sam's reviewed
sf: rationale is that there is new info
jb: pinging Leif, no response yet, but did discuss Monday that we'd look
for consensus but not necessarily unanimity
at moment think we have that
suggest we declare TF consensus
js: think we have that now
were specific that the question would be called in this call
<paulc> Title http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle
*RESOLUTION: Task Force supports Steve's reopened request and change
proposal at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/notitle and
recommends that it be forwarded to the HTML WG*
jb: moving back to longdesc
pc: trying to understand goal at the moment
current proposal being constantly updated
<paulc> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
updated on may 12
<judy> ===== longdesc =====
<judy> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
change proposals not necessarily expected to be static
it's before the WG now
<paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-030
chairs track these things at above link
jb: we've requested Laura to stabilize this
she asked for consensus, got additional suggestions, so has continued to
change
so put on agenda here to measure support from task force
who supports Laura's proposal as is right now?
<JF> +q
no responses, is the issue that it's still changing?
jf: conditionally I support, but need to finish fine-tuning
want to see final version
same
<JF> +1 to Rich's comments
think we're arriving at something that adds value to all users
jb: sounds like we can't call question on TF support until it stabilizes
to PC, what is process expectation?
pc: Sam & I will be at AC meeting next week, but both on travel so jetlag...
hope to respond within 3-4 days to reopen requests, but difficult next week
will enter our queue
jb: that's just regarding making decision whether or not to reopen?
pc: yes
though we have already started discussing this
and have meeting next Tuesday morning CEST
<JF> bye all
<MikeSmith> yep
<MikeSmith> wi
<MikeSmith> will be
Next week
Mike to chair, Steve to scribe
trackbot, end meeting
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl
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$Date: 2011/05/12 16:05:32 $
--
Michael Cooper
Web Accessibility Specialist
World Wide Web Consortium, Web Accessibility Initiative
E-mail cooper@w3.org <mailto:cooper@w3.org>
Information Page <http://www.w3.org/People/cooper/>
Received on Thursday, 12 May 2011 16:08:59 UTC