See also: IRC log
<DanC> Scribe: briansuda
<DanC> minutes 13 Jun
<DanC> dbooth: note 6 Jun record doesn't say who chaired
<iand> I am only available via IRC today I'm afraid
<DanC> (I see a chair in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/att-0046/SV_MEETING_TITLE_--_6_Jun_2007.htm )
<DanC> iand, 13 jun minutes good enough for you?
<iand> yes
<DanC> RESOLVED: to approve minutes 13 Jun
<DanC> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 27 June 11:00-0400. scribe volunteer?
<DanC> HarryH, you're still OK for next week, right?
<DanC> RESOLVED: to meet again Wed, 27 June 11:00-0400, danja_ to scribe
<rreck> can someone please provide a link to the agenda?
harry: discuss 1 or 2 or dbooths proposals
<HarryH> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda
<DanC> but for archival purposes...
harry: for primer - addressed comments, queries working (some), ...
danny: referencing profile documents, giving bad results?
<DanC> PROPOSED: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html v 1.81 2007/06/20 14:05:38 plus SPARQL query fixes, plus editorial changes that Harry runs by at least one WG member
<HarryH> Embedded RDF?
<DanC> ^that's what I heard harry propose
danny: resulting RDF was not complete, or maybe the guitar example
<jjc> The use of a namespace on the root element represents a declaration that the document conforms to the authoritative definition of that namespace as defined by the namespace owner, which may include a transformation from that XML dialect into RDF using GRDDL.
<HarryH> * ACTION: danja to review primer [CONTINUES]
harry: one last grammar check
on the primer
danny: just light editorary thing, and the one error in RDF
<HarryH> Danja, also it would also be useful for you to run queries over sample data.
Dan: keep as much out of the critical path, just Harry and Danny
Danny: david's usecase had the error
that error was fixed yesterday
<jjc> (jeremy + ian)
Harry: looking for consense on proposal
<HarryH> PROPOSED: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html v 1.81 2007/06/20 14:05:38 plus SPARQL query fixes, plus editorial changes that Harry runs by at least one WG member.
danny: seconds
david: yes,
john: yes
<rreck> yes
<FabienG> fabien : concur
dan: yes
<HarryH> rreck?
Murry: yes
<iand> yes
brian: yes
<HarryH> RESOLVED: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html v 1.81 2007/06/20 14:05:38 plus SPARQL query fixes, plus editorial changes that Harry runs by at least one WG member.
<rreck> version 1.81?
Dan: put the pictures back into the primer
<john-l> That's to publish that to http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-primer/ as a working draft?
<rreck> yes, i concur
Dan: all the actions are closed
on that item
... working draft or note?
Harry: note
<HarryH> Primer as a Note.
<DanC> WG Note fine by me
<HarryH> RESOLVED: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html v 1.81 2007/06/20 14:05:38 as a WG Note plus SPARQL query fixes, plus editorial changes that Harry runs by at least one WG member.
name change from embeded-RDF to inline-RDF
<HarryH> ACTION: john-l to ping Dave Beckett about embeddedRDF [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action01]
Harry: do we have earl results from Dave Beckett? - not yet
<jjc> On test cases http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0199
John: contacted Dave about this
<HarryH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0135.html
<DanC> (is "ACTION: chimezie to update test manifest to include statements about features exercised by each test" done?)
<john-l> DanC, good question; I believe the answer is yes.
Harry: any of chimezie open questions need to be answered
john: not sure if this is not finished
still @@'s on XProc stuff
Harry: get the test editor's draft up to speed to publish next week...
Dan: there have been answers to the @@'s that need to be put into the document
<HarryH> ACTION: john-l to ask chime to fix @@s in test-case document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action02]
<DanC> Re: Updates to test cases editor's draft. from Dan C
<DanC> and from jjc re test editor's draft
<HarryH> Zakim open item 5
<HarryH> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/pendinglist
Jeremy: should not suggest more tests, they won't get into the draft - they test the LIB not the implementations
no need to formally approve them
Dan: interested in getting them on the test suite
<john-l> ACTION: john-l to exercise GRDDL.py on http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/pendinglist [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action03]
<jjc> #trix2 does not work yet
Jeremy: will chat with John and seek approval next week
<HarryH> ACTION: jjc to fix glean-profile to work with redirects [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action04]
<dbooth> slides http://dbooth.org/2007/grddl/ambiguity.ppt
<HarryH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0142.html
david: slide 2, given an XML document, what RDF was intended
slide 3: not disirable abiguity, not forcing author to be unabigious, ...
slide 4, two kinds of ambiguity
1. Wrong results. Results contain different triples than intended.
2. Subsetting. User unknowingly gets a proper subset of the intended results, while believing that he/she got all of them.
leave the door open to future working groups to determine terms
Proposal 1b part 1: Partial solution
Proposal: Change input of GRDDL transformation from XPath node tree to representation
<dbooth> http://dbooth.org/2007/grddl/ambiguity.ppt
<dbooth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0201.html
Permits transformation author to reduce variability in the "transformation application" step
Simple normative change
No changes to test cases
Proposal 2b part 1: Better solution
<dbooth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0209.html
Proposal:
Change input of GRDDL transformation from XPath node tree to representation; and
Specify that parsing is minimal, non-validating/me wn/
<jjc> [[
<jjc> change: "XML document" to "XML document D"
<jjc> and: "TP applied to R" to "TP applied to D"
<jjc> ]]
<jjc> is the part imported from earlier messages
Observations:
Reduces unwanted ambiguity problem
Permits transformation author to reduce variability in the "transformation application" step
Simple normative change
No changes to test cases
<DanC> (require non-validating parsing? that conflicts with recent real-world experience, i.e. XTech )
<DanC> (at this point in the process, post-CR, any substantive changes really should come with test cases.)
<jjc> (I discovered that I am using a validating parser - I need to find out how to switch it off)
brian: abstain
john: yes, interested
Dan: change from nodeset-document
needs some test-cases, no support without test cases
... based on the proposal, no
<HarryH> DanC - no (without test-cases)
<rreck> yes i am interested. but i think test cases are useful
<HarryH> abstrain
<HarryH> murray - no
<HarryH> and would require re-opening faithful infoset.
<FabienG> concur
<HarryH> jjc?
<iand> i abstain
jeremy: opposed, ...
<jjc> (personally speaking)
<HarryH> 3 yes and 3 nos.
<dbooth> dbooth is yes :)
<HarryH> What if jeremy's test case was added:
david: if the test case were added, would there be support?
<HarryH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0149.html
david: implimentor issues, would/could they make the changes
Murry?: we don't have tests that take a document in, look for transformation, then decide to execute or not?
<jjc> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/pendinglist#db-3a
<jjc> and onwards
all the current apps we use are pipelines
<dbooth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0209.html
david: 2b part 1 straw poll, same as 1b part 1, with extras
abstain
<HarryH> john-l: yes
John: yes
Dan: against, but needs thought
<rreck> yes
<HarryH> murray: no
Murry: no
<FabienG> concur
<jjc> no
<HarryH> danja?
<iand> i abstain
<HarryH> abstain
<DanC> (Harry, if there's no open issue, the WG doesn't have to make a decision; a proposal that doesn't get consensus can just go by the wayside)
<danja> muted ipcaller
david: withdraw proposals at this point
Harry: any portion or changes that the WG could improve and push forward?
<DanC> (I think the "complete GRDDL result" idea is interesting, but I'm not sure how to fit it into the WG schedule. I guess I encourage an HP submission or something.)
David: anyone on the fence, what changes would be simple tweaks that would change your thoughts?
danny: hasn't had a chance to
review full, many good points...
... how many of these are known-problems?
Harry: xinclude example, to resolve or not resolve it
Danny: different triples, is different than sub-set - wrong results are problems
Murry: if you don't deal with infoset, then you are missing info.
<DanC> PROPOSED: to respond to issue-dbooth-3 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0078.html by noting that the WG sees some room for further study, but has postponed a nearby issue, issue-faithful-infoset , and encourages the community to experiment in this area
murry: DTD and other things add parts to a true XML document
david: permit the author to use things like XProc to control the flow
<Zakim> jjc, you wanted to represent someone else in HP
Murry: the proposal doesn't change how Xproc handles anything
Jeremy: many specs are moving tword ???
<DanC> (re jjc's point, noah M. (in the TAG) often brings up "synthetic infosets" )
Harry: if we postpone this, then it delays the GRDDL spec
<jjc> DanC: proposed to respond to comment noting that we have postponed #faithful-infoset
Harry: anything between normative
and tests?
... the spec talks about passing the node-tree to
transformation language
<Zakim> jjc, you wanted to modify DanC's proposal, if the chair wishes us to consider it
David: wants to hold till next week
Dan: wants to decide now
Jeremy: amendment to Dan's proposal
postponing faithful-info set was an important part of and referenced in our documents
<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to suggest that links to open tag issues fit better in the status section
Dan: tag issues in the status section already, could add a link there
add a link to the status section about XML
David: jeremy's wordsmithing, be away to address teh comment
<jjc> [[
<jjc> this specification anticipates that the
<jjc> resolution of TAG issue
<jjc> <a href="http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1#xmlFunctions-34">
<jjc> xmlFunctions-34
<jjc> </a>
<jjc> will provide further
<jjc> clarification and guidance.
<jjc> ]]
<DanC> #faithful-infoset wordsmithing JJC 19 Jun
change that text to something else
<jjc> GRDDL is intended to contribute to addressing Web Architecture issues such as RDFinXHTML-35 and namespaceDocument-8 as well as issues postponed by the RDF Core working group such as rdfms-validating-embedded-rdf and faq-html-compliance.
Jeremy: add something near there, similar to my wordsmithing
David: jeremy's wording would certainly be an improvement
Jeremy: Would like Dan to add something in that section about XML
David: WG hold so folks can read, or move forward
Jeremy: has suggest words, but Dan is the editor, so he is over text - up to the editor
trusts dan to edit as he sees fit
<dbooth> specifically words to the effect that the "xmlFunctions-34
<dbooth> </a>
<dbooth> will provide further
<dbooth> clarification and guidance"
<DanC> ACTION: DanC to work xmlFunctions-34 ref, incl "guidance..." into status section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action05]
<jjc> Note: Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 00:33:18 -0400 was when the comemnt was made
<rreck> yes
john: yes
Dan: no
ronald: yes
murry: no
<FabienG> concur
<HarryH> murray: no
jeremy; no
<iand> concur
danny: concur
Harry: can't extend this more than next week
if we cannot reach formal consensus by next week, that is it
david: if one more week is given, then the WG has atiquatly addressed the comment
harry: one normative and test case, there is no actual text. these need to be thought through and flush out by next week
<DanC> (it's always best when specific stuff is available as of when the agenda goes out)
<DanC> (http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec 1.271 has an attempt at the xmlFunctions stuff in the status section )
Harry: without chairs hat, this is just a possible design pattern for GRDDL agents for langs that are not XSLT1
<danja> (that makes sense)
David: to use XProc instead of XSLT
Murry: XProc doesn't actually do what david intends
<dbooth> I only know what i have read in the XProc spec
Harry: informative text to the spec or a note, lang not XSLT1 have potential issues
<jjc> (to DanC)
abstain
david: part 2, subsetting problem
gets GRDDL results, partical results return, but there is no way to know if they got ALL the results intended
leave the door open to a WG note, ...
<dbooth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0199.html
<dbooth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0201.html
ignore the first URL
<danja> (not sure I see the subsetting problem as a problem)
david: involves adding a sentance and add mention about the WG note
<rreck> abstain
abstain
john: yes
<iand> what is the proposal?
<jjc> discussion about WG Note about complete GRDDL result?
dan: interesting, but as team contact no cycles to do admin work
<DanC> (a) mentioning the WG in the body of the spec isn't something I like to do as editor
jeremy: is this actually on the agenda.
<DanC> (b) the suggestion under faithful infoset is a testable assertion
<HarryH> HP submission
Harry: this could be an HP submission rather than a Note
<DanC> (b) the suggestion under faithful infoset is a testable assertion; to add that at this (post-CR) stage suggests adding test cases.
David: is happy to do this as a submission rather than a WG note
Jermey: happy with it to be a note, but does not like the content, against the sentance
<HarryH> ACTION dbooth Send "just that sentence to be added to faithful infoset" over the listserv
Dan: no movement on that action
<dbooth> ACTION: dbooth to Send "just that sentence to be added to faithful infoset" over the listserv [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action06]
Dan: will get around to it eventually
<HarryH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0171.html
<jjc> Note this was informative not substantive - it is a fair bit of text ...
John: confident that changes are in, would like a review if possible
Jeremy: Dave Beckett has mentioned it.
<HarryH> ACTION: DanC to incorporate 0054 comments into namespace doc.(consider notifying Dave Beckett) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action07]
Harry: comments from Dave Beckett...
Dan: has made changes, found and issue
<jjc> ACTION: jjc to ask DaveBeckett to look at Base appendix, in response to appropriate comment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action08]
<HarryH> ACTION: DanC to incorporate 0054 comments into namespace doc.(consider notifying Dave Beckett) [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action09]
<DanC> as to how I'm not done on namespace doc: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0174.html
Harry: getting close
<HarryH> ACTION: DanC to incorporate 0054 comments into namespace doc.(consider notifying Dave Beckett) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action10]
<HarryH> Do we want to include raptor in our PR request?
Dan: yes
Jeremy: we have more tests to approve next week, so abit of a moving target
Dan: w3c online service and ??? are two implementations
<john-l> Jeremy, are you planning on pushing out some new EARL results soon?
Harry: W3C should be kept correct, even if they use other people's code
<jjc> should do before I go on holiday - EARL
<john-l> Excellent.
dan: kingsly and co. open link vertuoso? is second implementation
<HarryH> ACTION: HarryH to ping Dom to encourage him to move code. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action11]
<HarryH> ACTION: Danja to contact Kingsley and try to get GRDDL EARL results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action12]
<john-l> ACTION: john-l to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results based on new EARL results as they come in. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action13]
<DanC> danja, if you could wish into your blog about an openlink column in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results , that might do it
Harry: don't want to keep contacting people for EARL for tests we keep adding
<danja> 'k, nice leverage :-)
<john-l> ACTION: john-l to generate new EARL for GRDDL.py. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action14]
Jeremy: wants to keep contacting Dave about back and forth about test lib updates
<DanC> (DanC is happy to add tests as they mature)
Dan: approve them today, contigent on John or wait
Harry: can we ask EARL on un-approved tests
Dan: edit the master list of tests, when you thiink it is resonable
Harry: this will get us EARL results
<HarryH> ACTION: john-l and chime to update test document to reflect new tests (but not one in response dbooth) asap in order for those results to be in EARL. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action15]
Harry: PR request needs EARL inorder...
<HarryH> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/lc-spec
<HarryH> ACTION: HarryH and DanC to write XML Activity Lead and Chair of XSL/XQuery cc SemWeb CG re quotes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action16]
jeremy: need to close the loop on these comments... are you satisfied, yes/no ...
<DanC> on beckett in particular
<jjc> ACTION: jjc close loop with DaveB on 0102 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action17]
<HarryH> ACTION: jjc review appendix A of test editors draft [DO [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action18]
<DanC> i.e. [DONE]
<HarryH> ACTION: jjc review appendix A of test editors draft [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action19]
<HarryH> ACTION: DanC to review test coverage results via tabulator [WITHDRAWN] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action20]
HArry: results from
Tablulator?
... do people feel we are ready for PR?
<HarryH> WBS Survey?
<HarryH> ACTION: HarryH to write draft PR request [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action21]
David: other editoray things he has run across - not major issues
<HarryH> Meeting adjourned.