W3C

GRDDL WG Teleconference Minutes

20 Jun 2007

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
dbooth, briansuda, john-l, DanC, rreck, danja_, Harry_Halpin, Murray_Maloney, jjc, FabienG, danja
Regrets
Simone, Chime
Chair
HarryH
Scribe
briansuda

Contents


Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-06-20T11:00-0400

<DanC> Scribe: briansuda

<DanC> minutes 13 Jun

<DanC> dbooth: note 6 Jun record doesn't say who chaired

<iand> I am only available via IRC today I'm afraid

<DanC> (I see a chair in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/att-0046/SV_MEETING_TITLE_--_6_Jun_2007.htm )

<DanC> iand, 13 jun minutes good enough for you?

<iand> yes

<DanC> RESOLVED: to approve minutes 13 Jun

<DanC> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 27 June 11:00-0400. scribe volunteer?

<DanC> HarryH, you're still OK for next week, right?

<DanC> RESOLVED: to meet again Wed, 27 June 11:00-0400, danja_ to scribe

<rreck> can someone please provide a link to the agenda?

harry: discuss 1 or 2 or dbooths proposals

<HarryH> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/weekly-agenda

<DanC> but for archival purposes...

Done without comment

Primer

harry: for primer - addressed comments, queries working (some), ...

danny: referencing profile documents, giving bad results?

<DanC> PROPOSED: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html v 1.81 2007/06/20 14:05:38 plus SPARQL query fixes, plus editorial changes that Harry runs by at least one WG member

<HarryH> Embedded RDF?

<DanC> ^that's what I heard harry propose

danny: resulting RDF was not complete, or maybe the guitar example

<jjc> The use of a namespace on the root element represents a declaration that the document conforms to the authoritative definition of that namespace as defined by the namespace owner, which may include a transformation from that XML dialect into RDF using GRDDL.

<HarryH> * ACTION: danja to review primer [CONTINUES]

harry: one last grammar check

on the primer

danny: just light editorary thing, and the one error in RDF

<HarryH> Danja, also it would also be useful for you to run queries over sample data.

Dan: keep as much out of the critical path, just Harry and Danny

Danny: david's usecase had the error

that error was fixed yesterday

<jjc> (jeremy + ian)

Harry: looking for consense on proposal

<HarryH> PROPOSED: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html v 1.81 2007/06/20 14:05:38 plus SPARQL query fixes, plus editorial changes that Harry runs by at least one WG member.

danny: seconds

david: yes,

john: yes

<rreck> yes

<FabienG> fabien : concur

dan: yes

<HarryH> rreck?

Murry: yes

<iand> yes

brian: yes

<HarryH> RESOLVED: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html v 1.81 2007/06/20 14:05:38 plus SPARQL query fixes, plus editorial changes that Harry runs by at least one WG member.

<rreck> version 1.81?

Dan: put the pictures back into the primer

<john-l> That's to publish that to http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl-primer/ as a working draft?

<rreck> yes, i concur

Dan: all the actions are closed on that item
... working draft or note?

Harry: note

<HarryH> Primer as a Note.

<DanC> WG Note fine by me

<HarryH> RESOLVED: to publish http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/doc29/primer.html v 1.81 2007/06/20 14:05:38 as a WG Note plus SPARQL query fixes, plus editorial changes that Harry runs by at least one WG member.

Done without comment

GRDDL Test Cases

name change from embeded-RDF to inline-RDF

<HarryH> ACTION: john-l to ping Dave Beckett about embeddedRDF [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action01]

Harry: do we have earl results from Dave Beckett? - not yet

<jjc> On test cases http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0199

John: contacted Dave about this

<HarryH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0135.html

<DanC> (is "ACTION: chimezie to update test manifest to include statements about features exercised by each test" done?)

<john-l> DanC, good question; I believe the answer is yes.

Harry: any of chimezie open questions need to be answered

john: not sure if this is not finished

still @@'s on XProc stuff

Harry: get the test editor's draft up to speed to publish next week...

Dan: there have been answers to the @@'s that need to be put into the document

<HarryH> ACTION: john-l to ask chime to fix @@s in test-case document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action02]

<DanC> Re: Updates to test cases editor's draft. from Dan C

<DanC> and from jjc re test editor's draft

<HarryH> Zakim open item 5

Standard Transformation Library

<HarryH> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/pendinglist

Jeremy: should not suggest more tests, they won't get into the draft - they test the LIB not the implementations

no need to formally approve them

Dan: interested in getting them on the test suite

<john-l> ACTION: john-l to exercise GRDDL.py on http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/pendinglist [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action03]

<jjc> #trix2 does not work yet

Jeremy: will chat with John and seek approval next week

<HarryH> ACTION: jjc to fix glean-profile to work with redirects [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action04]

#issue-dbooth-3(ambiguity)

<dbooth> slides http://dbooth.org/2007/grddl/ambiguity.ppt

<HarryH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0142.html

david: slide 2, given an XML document, what RDF was intended

slide 3: not disirable abiguity, not forcing author to be unabigious, ...

slide 4, two kinds of ambiguity

1. Wrong results. Results contain different triples than intended.

2. Subsetting. User unknowingly gets a proper subset of the intended results, while believing that he/she got all of them.

leave the door open to future working groups to determine terms

Proposal 1b part 1: Partial solution

Proposal: Change input of GRDDL transformation from XPath node tree to representation

<dbooth> http://dbooth.org/2007/grddl/ambiguity.ppt

<dbooth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0201.html

Permits transformation author to reduce variability in the "transformation application" step

Simple normative change

No changes to test cases

Proposal 2b part 1: Better solution

<dbooth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0209.html

Proposal:

Change input of GRDDL transformation from XPath node tree to representation; and

Specify that parsing is minimal, non-validating/me wn/

<jjc> [[

<jjc> change: "XML document" to "XML document D"

<jjc> and: "TP applied to R" to "TP applied to D"

<jjc> ]]

<jjc> is the part imported from earlier messages

Observations:

Reduces unwanted ambiguity problem

Permits transformation author to reduce variability in the "transformation application" step

Simple normative change

No changes to test cases

<DanC> (require non-validating parsing? that conflicts with recent real-world experience, i.e. XTech )

<DanC> (at this point in the process, post-CR, any substantive changes really should come with test cases.)

<jjc> (I discovered that I am using a validating parser - I need to find out how to switch it off)

brian: abstain

john: yes, interested

Dan: change from nodeset-document needs some test-cases, no support without test cases
... based on the proposal, no

<HarryH> DanC - no (without test-cases)

<rreck> yes i am interested. but i think test cases are useful

<HarryH> abstrain

<HarryH> murray - no

<HarryH> and would require re-opening faithful infoset.

<FabienG> concur

<HarryH> jjc?

<iand> i abstain

jeremy: opposed, ...

<jjc> (personally speaking)

<HarryH> 3 yes and 3 nos.

<dbooth> dbooth is yes :)

<HarryH> What if jeremy's test case was added:

david: if the test case were added, would there be support?

<HarryH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0149.html

david: implimentor issues, would/could they make the changes

Murry?: we don't have tests that take a document in, look for transformation, then decide to execute or not?

<jjc> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/pendinglist#db-3a

<jjc> and onwards

all the current apps we use are pipelines

<dbooth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0209.html

david: 2b part 1 straw poll, same as 1b part 1, with extras

abstain

<HarryH> john-l: yes

John: yes

Dan: against, but needs thought

<rreck> yes

<HarryH> murray: no

Murry: no

<FabienG> concur

<jjc> no

<HarryH> danja?

<iand> i abstain

<HarryH> abstain

<DanC> (Harry, if there's no open issue, the WG doesn't have to make a decision; a proposal that doesn't get consensus can just go by the wayside)

<danja> muted ipcaller

david: withdraw proposals at this point

Harry: any portion or changes that the WG could improve and push forward?

<DanC> (I think the "complete GRDDL result" idea is interesting, but I'm not sure how to fit it into the WG schedule. I guess I encourage an HP submission or something.)

David: anyone on the fence, what changes would be simple tweaks that would change your thoughts?

danny: hasn't had a chance to review full, many good points...
... how many of these are known-problems?

Harry: xinclude example, to resolve or not resolve it

Danny: different triples, is different than sub-set - wrong results are problems

Murry: if you don't deal with infoset, then you are missing info.

<DanC> PROPOSED: to respond to issue-dbooth-3 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0078.html by noting that the WG sees some room for further study, but has postponed a nearby issue, issue-faithful-infoset , and encourages the community to experiment in this area

murry: DTD and other things add parts to a true XML document

david: permit the author to use things like XProc to control the flow

<Zakim> jjc, you wanted to represent someone else in HP

Murry: the proposal doesn't change how Xproc handles anything

Jeremy: many specs are moving tword ???

<DanC> (re jjc's point, noah M. (in the TAG) often brings up "synthetic infosets" )

Harry: if we postpone this, then it delays the GRDDL spec

<jjc> DanC: proposed to respond to comment noting that we have postponed #faithful-infoset

Harry: anything between normative and tests?
... the spec talks about passing the node-tree to transformation language

<Zakim> jjc, you wanted to modify DanC's proposal, if the chair wishes us to consider it

David: wants to hold till next week

Dan: wants to decide now

Jeremy: amendment to Dan's proposal

postponing faithful-info set was an important part of and referenced in our documents

<Zakim> DanC, you wanted to suggest that links to open tag issues fit better in the status section

Dan: tag issues in the status section already, could add a link there

add a link to the status section about XML

David: jeremy's wordsmithing, be away to address teh comment

<jjc> [[

<jjc> this specification anticipates that the

<jjc> resolution of TAG issue

<jjc> <a href="http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?type=1#xmlFunctions-34">

<jjc> xmlFunctions-34

<jjc> </a>

<jjc> will provide further

<jjc> clarification and guidance.

<jjc> ]]

<DanC> #faithful-infoset wordsmithing JJC 19 Jun

change that text to something else

<jjc> GRDDL is intended to contribute to addressing Web Architecture issues such as RDFinXHTML-35 and namespaceDocument-8 as well as issues postponed by the RDF Core working group such as rdfms-validating-embedded-rdf and faq-html-compliance.

Jeremy: add something near there, similar to my wordsmithing

David: jeremy's wording would certainly be an improvement

Jeremy: Would like Dan to add something in that section about XML

David: WG hold so folks can read, or move forward

Jeremy: has suggest words, but Dan is the editor, so he is over text - up to the editor

trusts dan to edit as he sees fit

<dbooth> specifically words to the effect that the "xmlFunctions-34

<dbooth> </a>

<dbooth> will provide further

<dbooth> clarification and guidance"

<DanC> ACTION: DanC to work xmlFunctions-34 ref, incl "guidance..." into status section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action05]

<jjc> Note: Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 00:33:18 -0400 was when the comemnt was made

<rreck> yes

john: yes

Dan: no

ronald: yes

murry: no

<FabienG> concur

<HarryH> murray: no

jeremy; no

<iand> concur

danny: concur

Harry: can't extend this more than next week

if we cannot reach formal consensus by next week, that is it

david: if one more week is given, then the WG has atiquatly addressed the comment

harry: one normative and test case, there is no actual text. these need to be thought through and flush out by next week

<DanC> (it's always best when specific stuff is available as of when the agenda goes out)

<DanC> (http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec 1.271 has an attempt at the xmlFunctions stuff in the status section )

Harry: without chairs hat, this is just a possible design pattern for GRDDL agents for langs that are not XSLT1

<danja> (that makes sense)

David: to use XProc instead of XSLT

Murry: XProc doesn't actually do what david intends

<dbooth> I only know what i have read in the XProc spec

Harry: informative text to the spec or a note, lang not XSLT1 have potential issues

<jjc> (to DanC)

abstain

david: part 2, subsetting problem

gets GRDDL results, partical results return, but there is no way to know if they got ALL the results intended

leave the door open to a WG note, ...

<dbooth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0199.html

<dbooth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0201.html

ignore the first URL

<danja> (not sure I see the subsetting problem as a problem)

david: involves adding a sentance and add mention about the WG note

<rreck> abstain

abstain

john: yes

<iand> what is the proposal?

<jjc> discussion about WG Note about complete GRDDL result?

dan: interesting, but as team contact no cycles to do admin work

<DanC> (a) mentioning the WG in the body of the spec isn't something I like to do as editor

jeremy: is this actually on the agenda.

<DanC> (b) the suggestion under faithful infoset is a testable assertion

<HarryH> HP submission

Harry: this could be an HP submission rather than a Note

<DanC> (b) the suggestion under faithful infoset is a testable assertion; to add that at this (post-CR) stage suggests adding test cases.

David: is happy to do this as a submission rather than a WG note

Jermey: happy with it to be a note, but does not like the content, against the sentance

<HarryH> ACTION dbooth Send "just that sentence to be added to faithful infoset" over the listserv

Standard Transformation Library

#issue-base-param

Dan: no movement on that action

<dbooth> ACTION: dbooth to Send "just that sentence to be added to faithful infoset" over the listserv [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action06]

Dan: will get around to it eventually

<HarryH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0171.html

<jjc> Note this was informative not substantive - it is a fair bit of text ...

John: confident that changes are in, would like a review if possible

GRDDL vocabulary and misc spec edits

Jeremy: Dave Beckett has mentioned it.

<HarryH> ACTION: DanC to incorporate 0054 comments into namespace doc.(consider notifying Dave Beckett) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action07]

Harry: comments from Dave Beckett...

Dan: has made changes, found and issue

<jjc> ACTION: jjc to ask DaveBeckett to look at Base appendix, in response to appropriate comment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action08]

<HarryH> ACTION: DanC to incorporate 0054 comments into namespace doc.(consider notifying Dave Beckett) [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action09]

Implementation Report, toward PR request

<DanC> as to how I'm not done on namespace doc: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Jun/0174.html

Harry: getting close

<HarryH> ACTION: DanC to incorporate 0054 comments into namespace doc.(consider notifying Dave Beckett) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action10]

<HarryH> Do we want to include raptor in our PR request?

Dan: yes

Jeremy: we have more tests to approve next week, so abit of a moving target

Dan: w3c online service and ??? are two implementations

<john-l> Jeremy, are you planning on pushing out some new EARL results soon?

Harry: W3C should be kept correct, even if they use other people's code

<jjc> should do before I go on holiday - EARL

<john-l> Excellent.

dan: kingsly and co. open link vertuoso? is second implementation

<HarryH> ACTION: HarryH to ping Dom to encourage him to move code. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action11]

<HarryH> ACTION: Danja to contact Kingsley and try to get GRDDL EARL results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action12]

<john-l> ACTION: john-l to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results based on new EARL results as they come in. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action13]

<DanC> danja, if you could wish into your blog about an openlink column in http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results , that might do it

Harry: don't want to keep contacting people for EARL for tests we keep adding

<danja> 'k, nice leverage :-)

<john-l> ACTION: john-l to generate new EARL for GRDDL.py. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action14]

Jeremy: wants to keep contacting Dave about back and forth about test lib updates

<DanC> (DanC is happy to add tests as they mature)

Dan: approve them today, contigent on John or wait

Harry: can we ask EARL on un-approved tests

Dan: edit the master list of tests, when you thiink it is resonable

Harry: this will get us EARL results

<HarryH> ACTION: john-l and chime to update test document to reflect new tests (but not one in response dbooth) asap in order for those results to be in EARL. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action15]

Harry: PR request needs EARL inorder...

<HarryH> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/lc-spec

<HarryH> ACTION: HarryH and DanC to write XML Activity Lead and Chair of XSL/XQuery cc SemWeb CG re quotes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action16]

jeremy: need to close the loop on these comments... are you satisfied, yes/no ...

<DanC> on beckett in particular

<jjc> ACTION: jjc close loop with DaveB on 0102 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action17]

<HarryH> ACTION: jjc review appendix A of test editors draft [DO [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action18]

<DanC> i.e. [DONE]

<HarryH> ACTION: jjc review appendix A of test editors draft [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action19]

<HarryH> ACTION: DanC to review test coverage results via tabulator [WITHDRAWN] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action20]

HArry: results from Tablulator?
... do people feel we are ready for PR?

<HarryH> WBS Survey?

<HarryH> ACTION: HarryH to write draft PR request [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action21]

David: other editoray things he has run across - not major issues

<HarryH> Meeting adjourned.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: DanC to incorporate 0054 comments into namespace doc.(consider notifying Dave Beckett) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: DanC to incorporate 0054 comments into namespace doc.(consider notifying Dave Beckett) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: DanC to work xmlFunctions-34 ref, incl "guidance..." into status section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Danja to contact Kingsley and try to get GRDDL EARL results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: dbooth to Send "just that sentence to be added to faithful infoset" over the listserv [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: HarryH and DanC to write XML Activity Lead and Chair of XSL/XQuery cc SemWeb CG re quotes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action16]
[NEW] ACTION: HarryH to ping Dom to encourage him to move code. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: HarryH to write draft PR request [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action21]
[NEW] ACTION: jjc close loop with DaveB on 0102 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action17]
[NEW] ACTION: jjc review appendix A of test editors draft [DO [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action18]
[NEW] ACTION: jjc to ask DaveBeckett to look at Base appendix, in response to appropriate comment [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: john-l and chime to update test document to reflect new tests (but not one in response dbooth) asap in order for those results to be in EARL. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action15]
[NEW] ACTION: john-l to ask chime to fix @@s in test-case document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: john-l to exercise GRDDL.py on http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/pendinglist [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: john-l to generate new EARL for GRDDL.py. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action14]
[NEW] ACTION: john-l to update http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/test_results based on new EARL results as they come in. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action13]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: DanC to incorporate 0054 comments into namespace doc.(consider notifying Dave Beckett) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action09]
 
[DONE] ACTION: jjc review appendix A of test editors draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action19]
[DONE] ACTION: jjc to fix glean-profile to work with redirects [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action04]
[DONE] ACTION: john-l to ping Dave Beckett about embeddedRDF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action01]
 
[DROPPED] ACTION: DanC to review test coverage results via tabulator [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action20]
 
[End of minutes]

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