Minutes for review: Aug 23 2006 15:00Z GRDDL WG meeting

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http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html

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W3C
- DRAFT -
GRDDL WG Weekly Teleconference
23 Aug 2006

Agenda

See also: IRC log
Attendees

Present
     Rachel_Yager, harry, +1.314.480.aaaa, DanC, +44.121.717.aabb, iand, 
briansuda
Regrets
     FabienG, BenA
Chair
     Harry
Scribe
     iand

Contents

     * Topics
          1. Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-08-23T15:00Z
          2. Finding Best Time for Re-occuring Meetings
          3. Quick review of Use Cases document, reviewing actions from 
last meeting
          4. Discussion of Primer Document
          5. Collecting issues with GRDDL submission
     * Summary of Action Items





<DanC> (disregard "Aug. 16" in the subject)

<harry> I'm with Rachel debugging IRC
Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2006-08-23T15:00Z

<DanC> FabienGandon, danja , are you joining soon?

<harry> Fabien - you're with us via IRC but not phone, correct?

<DanC> very well, FabienGandon

<DanC> minutes 16 Aug

RESOLUTION: minutes approved

<DanC> 1500Z Weds OK by me

harry: meeting time ok for everyone?

all: no dissent

<FabienGandon> 1500Z Weds OK by me too

<DanC> ok
Finding Best Time for Re-occuring Meetings

ryager: maybe some overlap of use cases

danc: querying html pages and querying xml document use cases are similar

ACTION Fabien to merge use case 5 with use case 8

<DanC> . ACTION Fabien: merge #5 Querying web sites with Use case #2 - 
Wikis and e-learning

<DanC> . ACTION Fabien: merge #5 Querying web sites with Use case #8 - 
Health Care

<DanC> FabienGandon, do you accept that action?

<harry> And I think we're happy with "dropping" the querying web page 
use-case..

<DanC> ACTION: DanC and Danja to flesh-out scheduling use-case [DONE] 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action01]

<FabienGandon> who is in charge of the "querying web sites with" use case?

<DanC> iand proposed it, FabienGandon , and he's happy to let it go

<FabienGandon> if so let's drop the action.

<danja> grr, my dial-in doesn't appear to work (skype probs)

<scribe> ACTION: Chime and Fabien to review Wiki use case. [DONE] 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action02]

<FabienGandon> who is in charge of the "Health Care" use case?

<harry> Chime

<DanC> "The RDF structure allows refactoring the wiki structure by 
editing the RDF annotations and the RDFS schemas they are based on." 
anybody know what that means?

<DanC> I'm not sure what you mean by "in charge"; we're all in charge of 
all the use cases, in some sense. Chime proposed the health care use case.

harry: possibly it means that the pages are classified in some way using RDF

<danja> Wiki presentation is done dynamically from the RDF?

<FabienGandon> Refactoring i.e. reorganizing a wiki is a big problem. If 
this can be done by enriching the underlying schema/annotations it is an 
improvement.

danc: would rather use cases showed real world problem, e.g rdf saves 
the day for teacher

<DanC> it would help me if you could elaborate on what it means to 
refactor using schema/annotations. i.e. tell me a story :)

<FabienGandon> Wiki presentation and navigation is done through SPARQL 
queries and XSLT rendering.

<DanC> there's some of that "RDF/GRDDL saves the day" stuff in the 
Marcilly story; I'd like more.

<harry> Let's make that an action - to try to give a more human face to 
the e-learning/wiki use-case.

<FabienGandon> Imagine a number of wiki users tag pages with tags like:

. ACTION: Fabien give a more human face to the e-learning/wiki use-case.

<FabienGandon> algebra, lenear algebra, numerical analysis, math, etc.

FabienGandon, do you want to take that action?

<harry> Actually, let's make that "refactor" instead of "human face"

<harry> as per DanC's comments

<DanC> "That sentence about refactoring is a bit obscure; a "For 
example..." would perhaps help." -- 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Aug/0080.html

<FabienGandon> by giving relations between thes tags you reorgenize the 
wiki and make the tagged pages linked by see also, narrower, etc.

. ACTION: Fabien to refactor e-learning/wiki use-case to have more 
"RDF/GRDDL saves the day" stuff

<DanC> could you elaborate in email, FabienGandon ?

is that a better proposed action?

<FabienGandon> I am willing to take the action if someone telle me in 
details what is inhuman in the current version ;-)

<harry> I agree.

<DanC> i.e. how does the person at Marcilly do the refactoring? what do 
they do to start?

<harry> I'll send out an e-mail with my comments in particular later today.

<harry> I think it's a good use-case just needs a little more polishing 
- and you're English is great Fabien

<scribe> ACTION: Fabien to refactor e-learning/wiki use-case to have 
more "RDF/GRDDL saves the day" stuff [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action03]

harry: moving onto W3C use case

danc: use case is close to what happens, but not quite
... can go either way on doing this or working on test cases

harry: drop use case for now?
... postpone discussion until next time

<DanC> danja, your phone isn't working?

harry: postpone all remaining use case discussions until relevant people 
are on phone next meeting?

<danja> DanC, nope

<DanC> ok

<danja> not really had chance to do much this week either - got heavy 
work commitments until end of month (Sept off!)
Quick review of Use Cases document, reviewing actions from last meeting

harry: what use case do people think we should develop into tutorial?

iand: would like first use case

ryager: like 1 or 2

<ryager> #1 or #2 use case for me

<briansuda> i am most familiar with the guitar use-case

danc: #1 is quite involved, lots of docs and sparql

<danja> briansuda, do you want to mention hotel data (as guitar replacement)

briansuda: most interested in guitar scenario. danc has suggested moving 
to hotels since has data for that
... lots of sites out there with reviews of wines etc

harry: is scheduling use case easier than guitar case?

<DanC> (FYI, the OWL WG got heat for featuring wine; lots of people 
think alcoholic drinks are not suitable examples for W3C documents.)

wonder if the aggregation part of guitar use case may be a barrier to 
writing as tutorial

briansuda: we can indicate that aggregators already exist

harry: any product other than wine that would be suitable?

briansuda: yahoo tech has reviews

harry: who wants to write primer?

. ACTION: ian to follow up scheduling use case and map out as primer
. ACTION: briansude to follow up guitar use case and map out as primer

<scribe> ACTION: briansuda to follow up guitar use case and map out as 
primer [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action04]

<scribe> ACTION: iand to follow up scheduling use case and map out as 
primer [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action05]

danc: can use grddl with no html involved

<harry> Like Chime's use case with XML clinical data

danc: people with xml documents licensing grddl for those docs

<danja> question - for the microformat use cases, are we going to 
pretend the live instance docs have profiles?

danc: would like to see this in primer
... privacy data, clinical data etc

<DanC> danja, we're not going to pretend; we're going to really use 
documents with profiles, or transformation links

<danja> which documents?

<DanC> all the documents in the primer

harry: would be good to have 2 part primer: one part html, one part xml. 
so 2 use cases
... neither xml use case authors are present on this call
... move forward with html use cases and see if they're suitable

both iand and briansuda volunteered to edit primer

<DanC> (email. cool. that requires no action on my part)
Discussion of Primer Document
Collecting issues with GRDDL submission

harry: testing of grddl

danc: easiest way to resolve issues is with test case
... base URI issue - 4 or 5 design options

<DanC> earlier base URI discussion 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Jul/0008.html

<DanC> <base href="http://example.org/about" />

<DanC> ^option A

<DanC> option B: <xsl:param name="*this*" 
select="*//*/@xml:base[position()=1]*" />

<DanC> brian: in x2v, we look at <base href=".."/> and then fall back to 
Source param

<DanC> ah... that's just like B

we need to consider rfc3986 rules for base URI determination

sec 5.1

xml: base too

briansuda: cannot get base uri in XSLT, only via param
... src came from vcard

DanC: inclined to use parameter called base

<DanC> ACTION: DanC to enumerate options for base issue, pick one, and 
propose it in the form of a test case (and perhaps some spec prose) 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action06]

<DanC> http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#implExp

<DanC> there are 7 issues there.

harry: what issues are missing? does danc need help maintaining list?

what about tracker (http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/)

<DanC> I can make a #issues thingy

see http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/webapi/

<DanC> seems to be member-confidential

http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/webapi/issues/40

<danja> nice

harry: issue list maintainer should decide on mechanism to maintain list

danc: should we formally list base uri as an issue (in w3c process sense)

harry: we should go through that list (in the grddl doc)
... danc can you explain "whether use of ECMAscript should be endorsed more"

danc: ref section 5 of doc
... expertise is with xslt, but we could describe transformations in 
other ways e.g. prose

harry: is it same issue that ben was asking about? pipeline?
... is grddl just for using xslt? current doc says no. and also does not 
say that xslt must be understood
... what processors must grddl support

danc: maybe say must support xslt1, may use xslt2 etc

harry: what about simile project scrapers that use javascript

<danja> there were some greasemonkey scripts around too

. ACTION: harry to propose minimum set of transformation formats that 
must be supported by grddl processors

harry, are you ok taking that?

<scribe> ACTION: harry to propose minimum set of transformation formats 
that must be supported by grddl processors [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action07]

<DanC> I just edited the draft: 
http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#issue-whichlangs 2006/08/23 16:17:10

<DanC> I can add an issue: should we define conformance classes such as 
"GRDDL document", "GRDDL client"?

i don't see that fragment id in the document

<danja> (hmm, the transformation doc should describe the mapping, but 
not the process by which it's achieved - how's it done in js?)

scribe may have missed some discussion here around defining terms in 
document

<danja> (/s/not/not necessarily)

<DanC> (found http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/REC-qaframe-spec-20050817/ ... )

harry: next meeting is next wed at same time, Danc is scribing

<harry> Wed. 30th of August 15:00Z

<DanC> RESOLVED: to meet Weds 30 Aug 1500Z and weekly thereafter

harry: can we quickly look over remaining actions, take some off of 
dan's hands

<harry> ACTION: POSTPONE to Danja to discuss wiki usecase, queury 
usecase, and e-learning usecase. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action08]

<DanC> try: ACTION: ... [CONTINUES]

<harry> ACTION [CONTINUES] Chime and DanJa on merging Atom/OWL usecase 
into XForms usecase

<harry> ACTION [CONTINUES] BenA to flesh out HTML RDF/A output of GRDDL 
use cases

<harry> ACTION: Chime and DanJa on merging Atom/OWL usecase into XForms 
usecase [CONTINUES] [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action09]

<harry> ACTION: BenA to flesh out HTML RDF/A output of GRDDL use cases 
[CONTINUES] [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action10]

<harry> ACTION:Chime and DanJa on merging Atom/OWL usecase into XForms 
usecase [CONTINUES] [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action11]

<harry> ACTION: DanC and Fabien to elaborate W3C /TR/ case. [CONTINUES] 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action12]

<DanC> I just added 
http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#issue-conformance-labels in 
Revision: 1.81

<harry> ACTION:Harry to discuss with BenA and DanC the XML Schema 
use-case in context of Creative Commons and OAI. See clarification from 
DanC [CONTINUES]. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action13]

<harry> ACTION: Harry to make sure Chime discusses plain old XML 
use-case (Chime's clinical data). [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action14]

<harry> Question: If one person's phone is cutting off - does it cut off 
everyone else?

<harry> Or just the person who is speaking?

<DanC> depends
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: briansuda to follow up guitar use case and map out as 
primer [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: DanC to enumerate options for base issue, pick one, and 
propose it in the form of a test case (and perhaps some spec prose) 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Fabien to refactor e-learning/wiki use-case to have more 
"RDF/GRDDL saves the day" stuff [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Harry to discuss with BenA and DanC the XML Schema 
use-case in context of Creative Commons and OAI. See clarification from 
DanC [PENDING]. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: Harry to make sure Chime discusses plain old XML use-case 
(Chime's clinical data). [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action14]
[NEW] ACTION: harry to propose minimum set of transformation formats 
that must be supported by grddl processors [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: iand to follow up scheduling use case and map out as 
primer [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: POSTPONE to Danja to discuss wiki usecase, queury usecase, 
and e-learning usecase. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action08]

[PENDING] ACTION: BenA to flesh out HTML RDF/A output of GRDDL use cases 
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action10]
[PENDING] ACTION: Chime and DanJa on merging Atom/OWL usecase into 
XForms usecase [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Chime and DanJa on merging Atom/OWL usecase into 
XForms usecase [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action11]
[PENDING] ACTION: DanC and Fabien to elaborate W3C /TR/ case. [recorded 
in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action12]

[DONE] ACTION: Chime and Fabien to review Wiki use case. [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action02]
[DONE] ACTION: DanC and Danja to flesh-out scheduling use-case [recorded 
in http://www.w3.org/2006/08/23-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action01]

[End of minutes]

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]