Nick van den Bleeken, Inventive Designers
Philip Fennell, MarkLogic
Alain Couthures, AgenceXML
Steven Pemberton, CWI (chair)
Leigh Klotz, Xerox (minutes)
Uli Lissé, DreamLabs
Kurt Cagle, XML Today
Steven Pemberton: Next week call is one hour earlier for Europe, then back to regular time the next week.
Steven Pemberton: I think it's
quite a good idea.
Nick van: I will be there two days
early and stay after.
Steven Pemberton: We have to find
money for a room.
Nick van: There is space available for
one day at XML Prague.
Steven Pemberton: That sounds
nice.
Uli Lissé: I think I would
go.
Steven Pemberton: Anyone from the
US?
Leigh Klotz: I doubt I will be able to
go.
Steven Pemberton: It might been an
informal thing then.
Uli Lissé: An editing
session.
Steven Pemberton: Philip, are you
planning to go to XML Prague?
Philip Fennell: I'd like to go and
will update in due course.
Alain Couthures: I would come too. I
am preparing some papers.
Steven Pemberton: Let's pencil it in.
Nick, can you contact for the rooms?
Nick van: I know there are meetings,
XSLT, XQuery, XSLFO. I don't know anybody to contact.
Alain Couthures: I can check.
ACTION-1837 Research rooms at XML Prague.
Steven Pemberton: Kurt, are you
planning to go to XML Prague.
Kurt Cagle: I doubt I will be able
to.
Steven Pemberton: Nick, will you
have time for an editorial meeting in November?
Nick van: November is quite full for
me. December is probably full for you.
Steven Pemberton: Possibly the very
first two days.
Steven Pemberton: A Dutch vendor
has asked us where to put implementation reports.
Nick van: We have them in CVS. We have
a stylesheet do the display.
Steven Pemberton: We should put those
somewhere visible.
Steven Pemberton: This questions is
from Seneca.
Leigh Klotz: The issue is about the
schema. We left off elementFormDefault="qualified".
Steven Pemberton: Is that right?
Leigh Klotz: I suspect we need to
reproduce his results.
Steven Pemberton: Do we say this is an
error and add the correction?
Leigh Klotz: I think this doesn't
affect XForms conformance as this purely an XML Schema issue and we
don't say anything special about namespaces. So pull out the
instance and schema and run it outside. And then test to see fixing
it breaks any XForms processor, which would mean there is an
unwritten assumption about how inline schemas are different with
regard to namespaces.
Nick van: Chiba, Firefox and EMC are
passing this test.
Alain Couthures: XSLTForms passes it
but it doesn't support the elementFormDefault attribute. However, I
have read that elementFormDefault is required to support
namespaces.
Leigh Klotz: Alain, why do you think
XSLTForms passes it?
Alain Couthures: It has its own
validator, right or wrong.
Leigh Klotz: Do you implement
elementFormDefault?
Alain Couthures: Not yet. I would like
to know what server-side engines do.
Steven Pemberton: Anyone else?
Leigh Klotz: We should ask John next
week.
Steven Pemberton: "Should
xforms-select be sent during initialization."
Nick van: We discussed improving UI
events.
Steven Pemberton: Do we send
xforms-readonly?
Nick van: None of the events are sent
during initialiation, only during state change.
Alain Couthures: It's already
implemented in XSLTForms.
Kurt Cagle: It sounds like an event
sent by the user on xforms-ready.
Steven Pemberton: Alain, you do
this?
Alain Couthures: Events are dispatched
at xforms-read for this problem.
Steven Pemberton: And
xforms-readonly?
Alain Couthures: I don't think
so.
Steven Pemberton: If we're going to do
it you would want to be consistent.
Nick van: We had two F2F discussions
on this and were almost there but not everybody was convinced and
we stopped talking about it. It's not clear now if the events are
for the XForms engine or the author. If it's for the author you
want to be informed.
Steven Pemberton: So that means that
we could answer that it's not required but you can do it.
Nick van: I think John would argue
that you can't do it because the spec doesn't say it.
Steven Pemberton: It's not the case
that implementations do that now.
Nick van: I believe Orbeon is also
sending the events on startup.
Steven Pemberton: "If this event is
not fired during initial rendering, I need to add redundant (and
error-prone) state information to set its initial value."
Nick van: Yes.
Steven Pemberton: What do other people
do?
Nick van: John's implementation does
not. Chiba doesn't, but I'm not sure. I think Orbeon does.
ACTION-1838 Steven Pemberton to reply to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-forms/2011Oct/0001.html to say that the events are not required, but there are impls that send them
Nick van: how orbeon treats the events: http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xforms-refresh-events
Steven Pemberton: We almost had a spec for this very long ago. It came from Mikko Honkala who was doing the X-Smiles implementation.
ACTION-1839 Steven Pemberton to locate Mikko Honkala's PI proposal
Alain Couthures: It points at the
instance.
Steven Pemberton: Why is it
/instance/?
Alain Couthures: It is supposed to be
bold; it is just an ID.
Steven Pemberton: This looks similar
to Mikko's proposal. Clearly there is a need.
Leigh Klotz: Is this done? Erik
Bruchez responded that Orbeon had an extension that did this
directly:
http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xbl-components/dialog-select
Steven Pemberton: So we need
Erik.
Leigh Klotz: Here is John's article:
https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/JohnBoyer/entry/moving_choices_from_one_list_to_another_in_xforms34?lang=en
Philip Fennell: I know Alain has
been doing work with XSLTForms and transform(). I'd like to redo my
work on that once those changes are available.
Alain Couthures: It's about transform
with parse vs document. I can already load a form within a form to
modify and launch it as a subform. Then we could use it to do
schema validation.
Steven Pemberton: Is there more to
discuss? Do we have a position? Is there something we need to make
official?
Philip Fennell: I chose it as a use
case for the transform() function. In doing so that showed up
implementation issues. I can't carry on any further until we have a
transform() within an instance and have the result as an XML
document.
Leigh Klotz: I believe the issue for
prototyping in XSLTForms is that XSLTForms currently returns a
string.
Alain Couthures: Right
Philip Fennell: Getting the report is
one thing. Getting the schema compiled into XForms and applied as a
transform is a second.
Leigh Klotz: Should we try to get
this done with XHTML Modularization or just as an organic
document?
Steven Pemberton: Prose?
Leigh Klotz: Prose, schemas,
description of CSS clsses.
Steven Pemberton: Is this a rec-track
document or a note?
Leigh Klotz: I can't remember what the
charter says.
Steven Pemberton: It calls it a
note.
Leigh Klotz: So perhaps I should just
start something in the wiki.
Steven Pemberton: So agreed. Start
with existing document?
Leigh Klotz: I'd start with a blank
document with the schema and the Venice list of CSS classes.
Steven Pemberton: Sounds good.