Alain Couthures, AgenceXML
John Boyer, IBM
Leigh Klotz, Xerox (minutes)
Nick van den Bleeken, Inventive Designers
Philip Fennell, MarkLogic
Steven Pemberton, CWI/W3C (minutes)
Uli Lissé, Dreamlabs
Charlie Wiecha, IBM
Erik Bruchez, Orbeon
download or a new form
control?Steven Pemberton: Next week I will be out (keynote in Oxford).
Leigh Klotz: An interesting read, maybe not much discussion, here.
Steven Pemberton: We've got four
days; I'm assuming we'll be 9-5. Will we need telecon?
Leigh Klotz: I probably won't be able
to attend in person.
Steven Pemberton: My feeling is that
if we're meeting for four days we don't need a virtual day. Anybody
disagree?
John Boyer: No.
Steven Pemberton: Registration for
TPAC is open until October 22. http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2010reg/
Steven Pemberton: How many know for
sure?
Alain Couthures: I'll try.
Nick van: I'll try.
Steven Pemberton: I'll go through my list and look for terribly old ones and unilaterally scrap some of them which have either happened or will never happen. I'll re-raise any that need to be done quickly.
Steven Pemberton: It's a shame we
didn't do this for select1.
Leigh Klotz: The @incremental default
doesn't work; consider a repeat.
Nick van: John hinted that an input
with enter would also commit the data and that's the "activation"
of the form control. So we might say the same thing about a
checkbox; that is a new event, so maybe we don't want this
behavior.
Steven Pemberton: Adding new
events?
Nick van: In text input, enter commits
and sends DOMActivate. We don't say how a control is activated. We
might say that on some devices that when you mouse a checkbox it's
activated.
John Boyer: In my email, I said that
seemed to work for me, and it recognized that there was a bit of
button-ness about a checkbox and so when you click it you activate
it.
Leigh Klotz: Where do we put this
guidance? Implementors who are working hard aren't seeing it.
Nick van: We already say that when you
activate the control, data is committed.
John Boyer: We give an example here of
search: http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#ui-input
Steven Pemberton: There's no
possibility of an incomplete value with select1 or input. There is
with select and with input for text. There's no doubt, so it can't
mean anything else.
John Boyer: We already have a DI note
at the end of #ui-input that says a graphical browser might
activate according to clicking or enter.
Leigh Klotz: The text is there. I just
didn't see it.
John Boyer: We can beef it up.
Leigh Klotz: After "See 8.1.2 The
input Element for an example." add "for an example of this
sequence, and for examples of activation."
John Boyer: And in section 8.1.2 add
example of activation.
Steven Pemberton: I think we could
generalize this; for example in Ubiquity there's a lat/lon control.
That ought to be incremental, since clicking is enough and you
don't have to navigate off.
John Boyer: Either incremental, or
saying that you activate the control and that commits the
value.
Nick van: It's stronger; incremental
is a hint.
John Boyer: I don't think incremental
is a hint; we can't rigorously define how often
xforms-value-changed events happen.
Nick van: If you click it the
DOMActivate happens right away whereas incremental may still pause.
So I think it's better to bind it to the activate behavior.
John Boyer: So what does an HTML4
browser do? Do you get activate events?
Steven Pemberton: Alain?
Alain Couthures: A DOMActivate can be
generated; I'm thinking of a test.
Action 2010-06-16.1: Alain Couthuries to investigate DOMActivate and HTML4 checkbox and report back.
Action 2010-06-16.2: John Boyer to add erratum to XForms 1.1 in section http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#sequence-for-input http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/#sequence-for-input to add guidance on when controls get activated, and incorporate Steven Pemberton's recommendation of activation timing as defined by complete-value readiness as a result of user interaction.
download or a new form
control?Leigh Klotz: The question remains
about show=download in Erik Bruchez's writeup of submission
replacement. Is it show=download or a new form control.
Steven Pemberton: My gut feeling is
that it's not a form control.
Nick van: I think it needs to be a
submission; later it can be a form control too if so, but the
submit control already has it.
John Boyer: I'm confused about form
controls. It's a third attribute on the load action?
Steven Pemberton: The suggestion as I
understand it, is to unify submission and load show.
Erik Bruchez: There is an
implementation problem to do this in HTML4. It would require
control of the Content-Disposition header.
Alain Couthures: It's not possible
with Javascript but there are some tricks.
Leigh Klotz: That's in
HTML4+Javascript.
Alain Couthures: Right, with a
plugin.
Erik Bruchez: My concern is that we
don't want to specify something we can't implement in existing
browsers. It would be a different question if we knew HTML5 would
soon allow it.
Alain Couthures: No, not in
HTML5.
Steven Pemberton: There are other
features not implementable in XHTML4+JS.
Alain Couthures: ...
Erik Bruchez: We have a server
component and we have a special appearance on output called
"download." This appearance causes a download to happen and we can
do this because of our server can force a content-disposition
header. I would be the first to support easy download, but I'm
worried that in general if we include client-side implementations,
it may not be implementable.
Nick van: http://dev.w3.org/html5/webstorage/#the-localstorage-attribute
Steven Pemberton: So you're saying we
need to use Content-Disposition and the server must know what we
want and so we can't put it into XForms.
John Boyer: Not at the required level.
At the recommended level, with the technical reason.
Erik Bruchez: There would be a lot of
value. Unfortunately, if we start littering it with features that
scare off implementors.
Leigh Klotz: You already have it
implemented; if someone else does it, and they do it the same way
as you, then we have a defacto standard.
Erik Bruchez: Would it be a show
attribute on submission? We don't have that.
Leigh Klotz: That's the discussion
here; what's the syntax?
Erik Bruchez: We had URIs result of
XForms upload which come from the client which end up as a URL in
the instance or base64, or we have a URL pointing to an external
service. Imagine upload/download attachment, or store attachment in
database and later download it. So the first thing we needed wasn't
a submission, but it was a control with the download appearance on
xf:output.
Leigh Klotz: Is it activated whenever
there is a refresh?
Erik Bruchez: It appears as a link or
button.
Leigh Klotz: xf:output is the least
typing; you could do it with submission or xf:load (as John says)
using the resource element on each.
Erik Bruchez: Imagine a repeat over
multiple attachments; with a submission, you have to somehow
communicate the URL to the submission.
Leigh Klotz: But it would work with
xf:load and we do have that outstanding request for
submission.
Erik Bruchez: Right.
Leigh Klotz: So we've got one case for
xf:output implemented. If we did it with load, we'd need to have
equivalence in submission.
John Boyer: Do we need to do
this?
Leigh Klotz: So is this xf:output with
an appearance, or is this a load and submission attribute? If we
think it's the latter we should decide now as we're discussing load
and appearance. If it's xf:output, we can postpone it.
John Boyer: xf:output appearance isn't
interoperable as it would be a custom namespace.
Alain Couthures: I'm not against the
xforms namespace.
Nick van: I would prefer it on
submission and load. That might be more natural.
Steven Pemberton: I agree.
John Boyer: Third.
Leigh Klotz: That doesn't preclude
xf:output appearance that Erik has done.
Steven Pemberton: Yes, he's done it
interoperably.
Steven Pemberton: So?
John Boyer: It sounds like a target.
We said replace would stay as all.
Steven Pemberton:
target="_download"?
Erik Bruchez: We had considered the
values of the target attribute might depend on the host language.
It's nice to say in HTML4 that you can use target values in XForms.
If we start adding values to that space it's funny.
John Boyer: It's not as funny as
changing the spelling of things that are available. It's less of a
problem to be a proper superset. The XForms processor adds value to
the host language, using the host language extension
mechanism.
Erik Bruchez: HTML4 specifies _top and
_blank now. It might be a conflict to use _download.
Alain Couthures: Yes.
Erik Bruchez: It's a mix of frames and
windows in HTML4.
John Boyer: So the replace attribute
doesn't have the best name, and we can use
replace=download and leave target as is?
Steven Pemberton: You are replacing
the thing as that filename. replace=file seems as good
as any.
Leigh Klotz: I doubt you can specify a
full filename.
Erik Bruchez: Content-Disposition
specifies the file name.
Leigh Klotz: Can we mine
Content-Disposition as a source of names for attributes or
values?
Steven Pemberton: From the user's
point of view, I think file is the right concept.
Leigh Klotz: Resolved?
Erik Bruchez: I'm not 100%
convinced.
Steven Pemberton: Let's leave it as
the current.
Erik Bruchez: I don't want to drag on
either.
Steven Pemberton: so
replace=file is our current proposal, but not a
resolution.