Re: [FXLA11Y] Minutes - 18 April 2023

I don’t think we have a single web page for all such things, Avneesh – but certainly a good suggestion that I will take back to the PDF Association.

There are a number of good publications about producing Tagged PDF and PDF/UA, including https://pdfa.org/resource/tagged-pdf-best-practice-guide-syntax/, and the W3C’s own “PDF Techniques for WCAG 2.0” at https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/pdf (which, last I heard, was in the middle of a refresh).

Leonard

From: Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 12:50 PM
To: 'Johnson, Rick' <Rick.Johnson@vitalsource.com>, 'Reid, Wendy' <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>, 'MURATA' <eb2mmrt@gmail.com>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
Cc: public-epub-wg@w3.org <public-epub-wg@w3.org>
Subject: RE: [FXLA11Y] Minutes - 18 April 2023

EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.


Rick Johnson wrote:
“Perhaps a thread in the community group?”

The community group is format independent. So, it is good to avoid this discussion in EPUB 3 WG and use Publishing CG.
At the same time, I would recommend Leonard to compile all these accessibility features of PDF in a webpage and point the community to it. It would be very helpful for the accessibility community. If such a webpage already exists, then please point us to it.

Thanks
Avneesh

From: Johnson, Rick <Rick.Johnson@vitalsource.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 22:14
To: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>; MURATA <eb2mmrt@gmail.com>; Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
Cc: public-epub-wg@w3.org
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Minutes - 18 April 2023

While I understand keeping the working group focus, I personally have found these type of conversations illuminating and informative (and having the depth of knowledge Leonard has available to us is invaluable!).  I believe it is good for those of us who understand (or try to!) the details of EPUB to also understand their corollary in the PDF world, especially if we bring both formats to the marketplace.

Perhaps a thread in the community group?

Rick Johnson | Co-Founder and Vice President of Product Strategy and Accessibility
VitalSource Technologies, LLC
get.vitalsource.com <https://get.vitalsource.com/>



From: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>
Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 8:37 AM
To: MURATA <eb2mmrt@gmail.com<mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com>>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
Cc: public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org> <public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Minutes - 18 April 2023
Hi all,

I know accuracy is important but just a kindly reminder that this is the EPUB working group and we don’t need to litigate the finer technical points of PDF in our mailing list. If you need to discuss PDF please take it off-list.

Let’s stay on topic please.

Cheers,
Wendy

From: MURATA <eb2mmrt@gmail.com<mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com>>
Date: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 at 9:59 AM
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
Cc: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>, public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org> <public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Minutes - 18 April 2023

[EXTERNAL] This message comes from an external organization.
Leonard,

I know that Japanese users are annoyed since
most PDF readers (including those from Adobe)
read aloud the ruby line before the line containing
base characters.  I also know that at least two
companies write software for guessing the
relationship between ruby and base characters
(without using PDF ruby tags) so that they can
create reasonable DAISY textbooks, which
represents the relationship between ruby annotations
and base characters.  If PDF tags for ruby
are correctly used, these problems should
not happen.

Do most PDF documents lack PDF tags for
ruby?  Or, are developers unaware of them?
I do not know.  But when JIS X 8341-3:2016
is revised in the future, I will raise this issue
and make sure that it will strongly discourage
the use of those PDF generators which do not
create PDF tags for ruby.

Regards,
Makoto

2023年4月19日(水) 21:44 Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>:
From Adobe – Acrobat, InDesign and FrameMaker.

The PDF Association has also been working with the leading TeX providers to ensure full tagging support including Math and CJK.

I am sure there are other vendors that do it, but I can’t speak to which ones.

Leonard

From: MURATA <eb2mmrt@gmail.com<mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 7:23 PM
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
Cc: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>, public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org> <public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Minutes - 18 April 2023

EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.


Leonard,

Thanks.  I did not know that.

But who embeds that tag?  Does Acrobat do so?

Regards,
Makoto

2023年4月19日(水) 2:09 Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>:
That is incorrect Murata-san.

There is an entire section of ISO 32000 (the PDF standard) called “Ruby and warichu elements” (14.8.4.7.3) that discusses how to properly tag these elements in a PDF.

Leonard

From: MURATA <eb2mmrt@gmail.com<mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com>>
Date: Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 11:22 AM
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
Cc: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>, public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org> <public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: [FXLA11Y] Minutes - 18 April 2023

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PDF tags do nothing about ruby.  In PDF documents,
ruby is just another line containing tiny characters.  As
a result, the accessibility of PDF documents containing
ruby is very poor.

Regards,
Makoto

2023年4月18日(火) 23:14 Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>:
IN the transcript, I find:


>Gregorio: PDF tags is very limited. similar experience with PDFs and FXL.

PDF tags are *much more flexible* than (X)HTML tags, because they are (a) extensible and (b) namespaced.

Gregorio – can you give some insight into your statement?

Leonard

From: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>
Date: Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:04 AM
To: public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org> <public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: [FXLA11Y] Minutes - 18 April 2023

EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.


Hi all,

Here are the minutes from today’s meeting: https://www.w3.org/2023/04/18-epub-fxl-minutes.html


Thanks,
Wendy


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慶應義塾大学政策・メディア研究科特任教授
村田 真


--
 --
慶應義塾大学政策・メディア研究科特任教授
村田　真


--
 --
慶應義塾大学政策・メディア研究科特任教授
村田　真