Re: Language in eocred

Thank you for this summary.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 3:24 AM, Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk> wrote:

> I have written up the outcome of this discussion on the wiki
> <https://www.w3.org/community/eocred-schema/wiki/Language_of_a_credential_and_related_entities>
> [1]
>
> Phil
>
> [1] https://www.w3.org/community/eocred-schema/wiki/Language_
> of_a_credential_and_related_entities
>
>
> On 13/03/18 17:59, Phil Barker wrote:
>
> Thanks Fritz. I think we are also mixing in some aspects of the use cases
> we have for coverage (i.e. geographic area or jurisdiction for which the
> credential is valid) and transfer value. But we should be able to describe
> your wife in JSON-LD by the end of this :)
>
> Phil
>
> On 13/03/18 17:16, Fritz Ray wrote:
>
> We're mixing some notions of "Awarded Credential" data with "Abstract Credential" data, but yes... and additionally:
>
> {
>   "@context": "http://schema.org/" <http://schema.org/>,
>   "@type": "EducationalOccupationalCredential",
>   "@id": "http://example.org.cn/Nursing" <http://example.org.cn/Nursing>,
>   "name": "Undergraduate degree in nursing",
>   "inLanguage": "zh",  "@reverse": {
>     "educationalCredentialAwarded": {      "@context": "http://schema.org/" <http://schema.org/>,      "@type": "Course",
>       "name": "Programme of study for nursing",
>       "inLanguage": "zh"
>     }
>   }
>   "educationalCredentialAwarded": {      "@context": "http://schema.org/" <http://schema.org/>,      "@id": "http://example.state.wa.us/Nursing" <http://example.org.cn/Nursing>  } <http://example.org.cn/Nursing>
> }
>
> {
>   "@context": "http://schema.org/" <http://schema.org/>,
>   "@type": "EducationalOccupationalCredential",
>   "@id": "http://example.state.wa.us/Nursing" <http://example.org.cn/Nursing>,
>   "name": "License to practice Nursing",
>   "inLanguage": "en-US"
> }
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Fritz, does this work for you?
>>
>> {
>>   "@context": "http://schema.org/" <http://schema.org/>,
>>   "@type": "EducationalOccupationalCredential",
>>   "@id": "http://example.org.cn/Nursing" <http://example.org.cn/Nursing>,
>>   "name": "Undergraduate degree in nursing",
>>   "@reverse": {
>>     "educationalCredentialAwarded": {
>>       "@context": "http://schema.org/" <http://schema.org/>,
>>       "@type": "Course",
>>       "name": "Programme of study for nursing",
>>       "inLanguage": "zh"
>>     }
>>   }
>> }
>>
>>
>> On 13/03/18 16:53, Fritz Ray wrote:
>>
>> I can tell you my wife's story to help illustrate this.
>>
>> So, my wife has a nursing degree in China. She still thinks about quite a
>> bit of nursing in her head in Chinese, though she was allowed (via a
>> special program) to get licensed in the state of New Mexico in the US, and
>> from New Mexico to the state of Washington.
>>
>> She has not been allowed to get licensed in the State of Oregon, because
>> Oregon doesn't recognize transfers from Washington or New Mexico, and does
>> not recognize foreign degrees unless they go through the international
>> degree transfer system... As her school in China has closed, this is no
>> longer possible.
>>
>> So, she has a Chinese nursing degree, nursing competencies in Chinese,
>> though she applies them in the US. She also has an expired license in New
>> Mexico and a current license in Washington. She has gained quite a number
>> of nursing competencies in English through her experience and employment
>> history.
>>
>> To get a nursing license in Oregon, she would need a US recognized
>> nursing degree, presumably taught in English. This requires English taught
>> prereqs (like writing classes and math classes).
>>
>> To recognize her Chinese degree, all the materials about that degree
>> would need to be translated to English. This means there would be English
>> data (the translation) of a Chinese degree about Nursing (thought about in
>> Chinese).
>>
>> To sum up, I agree that there's a need for a field that indicates the
>> primary language of the material covered by the degree, distinct from the
>> language of the data used to describe the degree. (Langstrings should cover
>> the latter).
>>
>> inLanguage covers this use case nicely.
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 9:13 AM, Hugh Paterson III <
>> sil.linguist@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Phil,
>>>
>>> I appreciate this discussion. I'm trying to get my head around an
>>> economy of credentials. A German (or any company where the corporate
>>> culture has a monolingual language component) would be looking for someone
>>> with a certain set of credentials. Would such a company's HR department
>>> limit their search to credentialing organizations that only offer "German"
>>> credentials? Rather than looking for a universal set of "Credentials" and
>>> then also for a competency or credential of "German". Take the case of a
>>> materials chemist for working in the solar manufacturing industry. Let's
>>> assume that a German Company wants to fill a new opening. They start their
>>> recruitment search. The team they want to recruit for will be German
>>> speaking team. Where do they start their search?
>>>
>>> - Hugh
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 2:30 AM, Phil Barker <phil.barker@pjjk.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Hugh
>>>> On 12/03/18 17:19, Hugh Paterson III wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have a use case for competency/credential discovery.
>>>>
>>>> I want to find pilots who not only speak German as a competency, or
>>>> received a German Federal aviation credential, but trained for their
>>>> Aviation certificates using the German language.
>>>>
>>>> So more broadly this is a use case where the knowledge was expressed in
>>>> a language.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think that there are two options from the existing use cases that
>>>> would cover this type of requirement:
>>>> a, we consider it as a competence just like any other, and express it
>>>> as such; or
>>>> b, we say it is a requirement that is not really a competence, for
>>>> which we have the eligibility requirements
>>>> <https://www.w3.org/community/eocred-schema/wiki/Use_Cases#Eligibility_requirements>
>>>> use case
>>>>
>>>> The demonstrated ability to express knowledge in a given language could
>>>> be case (a); to have been undertaken aviation training in the medium of
>>>> German could be case (b).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If we take this to the case of math skills, or the completion of some
>>>> Algebra course, I want to know what language the course was taught in.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As was the case when we discussed costs, I think we need to be careful
>>>> to distinguish between the Credential, Learning Opportunities that can lead
>>>> to the credential, and Assessments that must be passed before the
>>>> credential is awarded.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> have we covered this yet as a use case in :
>>>> https://www.w3.org/community/eocred-schema/wiki/Use_Cases
>>>>
>>>> 1. The text book for a maths course in German could use the LRMI
>>>> language attribute.
>>>>
>>>>    - inLanguage     schema.org/Language     The primary language of
>>>>       the resource.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. We can specify the language of learning resources
>>>> (schema:CreativeWork) that are relevant to the credential
>>>>
>>>> 2. The maths course was taught in German could be described by
>>>> ______________.
>>>>
>>>> A schema:Course is a CreativeWork, and a CourseInstance is an Event, so
>>>> we can use the inLanguage property for these as well.
>>>>
>>>> 3. The Credential offered seems to be agnostic to language
>>>> considerations as it is just a credential unless we are using a language
>>>> tag to describe the language used in the credential's essence.
>>>>
>>>> Sure, if Credential is a type of CreativeWork we have various ways of
>>>> talking about its language, translations, and instances/embodiments
>>>> <http://schema.org/workExample> of it.
>>>>
>>>> 4. Any given competency may have an equivalent in another schema but be
>>>> expressed in another natural language. (That is, there may be a German
>>>> standard for competencies that has been aligned to an English standard for
>>>> competencies, but what is missing seems to be the element that the
>>>> competency was expressed in a particular natural language.)
>>>>
>>>> There is no way of expressing competences in schema.org at the
>>>> moment.  As Stuart said, there have been suggestions about how CategoryCode
>>>> / DefinedTerm could be used, and how it could be extended into something a
>>>> little bit more SKOS-like. A DefinedTerm would be part of a DefinedTermSet,
>>>> which is a subtype of CreativeWork. So if they were used as the basis for
>>>> describing competencies and competence frameworks, then the language of a
>>>> Competence Framework could be provided. I am inclined to think that the
>>>> detailed modeling of competencies is a rabbit hole that we shouldn't go too
>>>> far down.
>>>>
>>>> Phil
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil
>>>> PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk>: technology to enhance learning;
>>>> information systems for education.
>>>> CETIS LLP: a cooperative consultancy for innovation in education
>>>> technology.
>>>>
>>>> PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company,
>>>> number SC569282.
>>>> CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in
>>>> England number OC399090
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil
>> PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk>: technology to enhance learning;
>> information systems for education.
>> CETIS LLP: a cooperative consultancy for innovation in education
>> technology.
>>
>> PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company,
>> number SC569282.
>> CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in
>> England number OC399090
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil
> PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk>: technology to enhance learning;
> information systems for education.
> CETIS LLP: a cooperative consultancy for innovation in education
> technology.
>
> PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company,
> number SC569282.
> CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in
> England number OC399090
>
>
> --
>
> Phil Barker <http://people.pjjk.net/phil>. http://people.pjjk.net/phil
> PJJK Limited <https://www.pjjk.co.uk>: technology to enhance learning;
> information systems for education.
> CETIS LLP: a cooperative consultancy for innovation in education
> technology.
>
> PJJK Limited is registered in Scotland as a private limited company,
> number SC569282.
> CETIS is a co-operative limited liability partnership, registered in
> England number OC399090
>