Re: [minutes] 2012-11-26

Hi Phil,

I do not know how it works, but I would like to ask for some relevant
changes added in line (the red ones) to the minutes (if possible, of course)

Best regards,

Serafin Olcoz


El 26/11/12 11:38, "Phil Archer" <phila@w3.org> escribió:

> The minutes of today's meeting featuring presentations from Rufus
> Pollock and Serafin Olcoz are at
> http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-egov-minutes.html and repeated below as text.
> 
> 
>                     W3C eGov 26 November 2012 meeting
> 
>     [2]Agenda
> 
>        [2] 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2012Nov/0053.html
> 
>     See also: [3]IRC log
> 
>        [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/11/26-egov-irc
> 
> Attendees
> 
>     Present
>            agipap, PhilA2, [IPcaller], +8532871aaaa, Serafin,
>            martinAlvarez, Tomasz, +8532871aabb, +8532871aacc,
>            +44.786.783.aadd, Elsa, Rufus
> 
>     Chair
>            Tomasz Janowski
> 
>     Scribe
>            Florian Henning, PhilA
> 
> Contents
> 
>       * [4]Topics
>           1. [5]Open data kickoff
>           2. [6]presentation by open knowledge foundation (rufus
>              pollock)
>           3. [7]Serafin Olcoz on Openness and Reuse of Public
>              Sector Information using Open Data Publishing, Decree
>       * [8]Summary of Action Items
>       __________________________________________________________
> 
>     <scribe> Scribe: Florian Henning
> 
>     <scribe> ScribeNick: fhenning
> 
>     <PhilA2> Meeting:eGov Interest Group
> 
>     <PhilA2> agenda:
>     [9]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2012Nov/0
>     053.html
> 
>        [9] 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2012Nov/0053.html
> 
>     <PhilA2> chair: Tomasz
> 
>     <DeirdreLee> I'm one of P5, P6 or P7..
> 
>     <rgrp> hi there
> 
>     <rgrp> this is rufus pollock ...
> 
>     <rgrp> i am also on the phone
> 
> Open data kickoff
> 
>     Tomasz: welcomes participants and ask for round of
>     introductions
> 
>     <Olcoz> Hi Martin
> 
>     [audio problems from Tomasz line. reconnecting]
> 
>     [audio problems resolved]
> 
>     yes i'm scribing
> 
>     <PhilA2> scribe: fhenning
> 
>     <PhilA2> scribeNick: fhenning
> 
>     DeirdreLee: from from ireland
> 
>     from unu-iist/merit
> 
>     Gwyn_Sutherlin: phd candidate in peace studies
> 
>     mariateresa: from england
> 
>     martinAlvarez: from spain
> 
>     <PhilA2> agipap: is Agis Panatoniou from NTUA Greece
> 
>     Agis: from greece
> 
>     <PhilA2> rgrp: Is Rufus Pollock
> 
>     elsa: from unu-iist, macau
> 
>     <billroberts> Hi All - from UK, particular interest in Linked
>     Data for public sector
> 
>     Tomasz: few words about open data topic
> 
>     <Gwyn_Sutherlin> I joined the call as IP caller, not sure how
>     to add
> 
>     Tomasz: OD = data that is free to use/reuse by anyone
>     ... OD has not yet beenproperly exploited, but can have huge
>     potential
>     ... impossible to predict how it can produce value
> 
>     <elsa> I am trying to connect on the phone and type 3468# and I
>     get the message that the code is incorrect
> 
>     Tomasz: according to April's OD workshop by IDRC/Berkman
>     center, there is a range of potential benefis from OD
>     ... but we don't understand many issues about OD
>     ... same workshop also identified strateic tensions relating to
>     adoption of OD
>     ... eg. contextual differences between developed and developing
>     countries
>     ... also strat. tension concerning outcomes vs. impact
>     ... another point is a strat. tnesion between qualitative and
>     quanitative methods to explore impact of OD
>     ... it will be dificult to quantify many impacts. this impacts
>     how analysis is framed
>     ... any questions at this point?
> 
>     no questions
> 
>     Tomasz: introduces speakers
>     ... daniel bennet is not on the call. tomasz will fill in
> 
>     <rgrp>
>     [10]http://notebook.okfn.org/2012/11/26/open-data-protocols-pre
>     sentation-to-w3c-egov-interest-group/
> 
>       [10] 
> http://notebook.okfn.org/2012/11/26/open-data-protocols-presentation-to-w3c-eg
> ov-interest-group/
> 
> presentation by open knowledge foundation (rufus pollock)
> 
>     <rgrp>
>     [11]http://notebook.okfn.org/2012/11/26/open-data-protocols-pre
>     sentation-to-w3c-egov-interest-group/
> 
>       [11] 
> http://notebook.okfn.org/2012/11/26/open-data-protocols-presentation-to-w3c-eg
> ov-interest-group/
> 
>     <rgrp> [12]http://bit.ly/dataprotocols-egov-nov-2012
> 
>       [12] http://bit.ly/dataprotocols-egov-nov-2012
> 
>     <PhilA2> Slides are now linked from the wiki
> 
>     <rgrp> the notebook post would probably be the optimum thing to
>     link to
> 
>     <rgrp> [13]http://ckan.org/
> 
>       [13] http://ckan.org/
> 
>     [audio line from rufus has suboptimal sound quality, scribing
>     will not be complete, pls refer to slides on wiki for more
>     complete notes]
> 
>     <rgrp> [14]http://dataprocotols.org/
> 
>       [14] http://dataprocotols.org/
> 
>     phil could you aid with scribing for this presentation if you
>     receive better audio?
> 
>     thanks
> 
>     <DeirdreLee> [15]http://www.dataprotocols.org/
> 
>       [15] http://www.dataprotocols.org/
> 
>     <PhilA2> Slide 3 - we want a rich data ecosystm. Easy to share
>     data, easy to use
> 
>     <PhilA2> scribe: PhilA2
> 
>     <rgrp>
>     [16]http://blog.okfn.org/2011/03/31/building-the-open-data-ecos
>     ystem/
> 
>       [16] http://blog.okfn.org/2011/03/31/building-the-open-data-ecosystem/
> 
>     rgrp: We're missing quite a lot of this middle piece. We have
>     the top anad bottom but not the intermediatary group
>     ... so data tends to be quite low quality
>     ... To give you an example. If you;re trying to build something
>     on a hack day, you spend half your data cleaning up data
>     ... assuming you can find it, it's not in the right form, got
>     messy terms etc.
>     ... You need country codes that work in a mashup and so on.
>     ... people spend time over and over again cleaning up the same
>     daya
>     ... Rufus shows his age and starts talking about punch cards
>     ... A classic thing you might want to do is garb data and put
>     in into postgre
>     ... this is not a one liner. There's a lot to do. What we want
>     is a one line to get data from a catalogue and put it into a
>     local tool
> 
>     <rgrp> [17]http://blog.okfn.org/2010/02/23/introducing-datapkg/
> 
>       [17] http://blog.okfn.org/2010/02/23/introducing-datapkg/
> 
>     <Tomasz> q
> 
>     <Tomasz> phil, how to check the question queue? sorry
> 
>     rgrp: A lot of software integration doesn't happen
>     automatically. A lot of it is based on APIs
> 
>     <Tomasz> thank you
> 
>     rgrp: We need to look at (digital) packaging
>     ... We need that kind of software packaging ecosystem - how do
>     we do that with data?
>     ... WE want to be better at automating getting data on nad off
>     our machines
>     ... W3C does good work on schemas but it's not lightweight
>     ... We've been doing a thing called dataprotocols.org where
>     people can hangout and work on specs
>     ... Slide 5
>     ... is a screen grab of what's going on
>     ... these are concrete services that we have built or want to
>     build
>     ... it's not a formal standardisation process
>     ... but this is a space for more informal, RFC-style
>     development
>     ... more on slide 6
>     ... Going on to talk about data packages
>     ... been working on it for about 5 years
>     ... orginally part of CKAN
>     ... we have software packages, can we have data packages?
>     ... Focus on tabular data. The catalogues I've seen, tabular +
>     geo is almost all of what gets published
>     ... In terms of original raw data, most of it is tabular
>     ... It has a lot of attractive properties that I could go on
>     about
>     ... A lot of the data is file based, not API-based
>     ... flat files like CSV are very attractive. It may not be
>     pretty but it is effective - like a Kalashnikov rifle
>     ... everything supports it
>     ... it streams well, you can have massive files
>     ... a simple schema for describing CSV would be useful
>     ... we need version info for CSVs. Open is important, but if
>     eberyone is collaborating, how to we do version management for
>     CSV
>     ... Git or Mercurial are potentially good ones for CSAV as they
>     are line-orientated
>     ... the actual spec is available
>     ... what it boils down to is a bunch of data files, you have
>     JSON and you can have other stuff
>     ... there's a .json file that includes the metadata
>     ... and then you have a filespec to list your files
>     ... Slide 12 is an example
> 
>     <rgrp>
>     [18]https://github.com/datasets/cofog/blob/master/datapackage.j
>     son
> 
>       [18] https://github.com/datasets/cofog/blob/master/datapackage.json
> 
>     rgrp: You can add more to this. But basically it's a table
>     schema
> 
>     <rgrp>
>     [19]http://www.dataprotocols.org/en/latest/json-table-schema.ht
>     ml
> 
>       [19] http://www.dataprotocols.org/en/latest/json-table-schema.html
> 
>     The whole thing follows...
> 
>     {
> 
>     "metadata": {
> 
>     "name": "cofog",
> 
>     "title": "Classification of the Functions of Government",
> 
>     "homepage":
>     "[20]http://unstats.un.org/unsd/class/family/family2.asp?Cl=4",
> 
>       [20] http://unstats.un.org/unsd/class/family/family2.asp?Cl=4
> 
>     "version": "1999",
> 
>     "source": "United Nations",
> 
>     "licenses": [
> 
>     {
> 
>     "id": "odc-pddl",
> 
>     "name": "Open Data Commons Public Domain Dedication and Licence
>     (PDDL)",
> 
>     "url": "[21]http://opendatacommons.org/licenses/pddl/"
> 
>       [21] http://opendatacommons.org/licenses/pddl/
> 
>     }
> 
>     ],
> 
>     "description": "Classification of the Functions of Government
>     (COFOG) is a classification defined by the United Nations
>     Statistics Division. Its purpose is to \"classify the purpose
>     of transactions such as outlays on final consumption
>     expenditure, intermediate consumption, gross capital formation
>     and capital and current transfers, by general government\"
>     (from home page).",
> 
>     "keywords": [
> 
>     "Classification",
> 
>     "COFOG",
> 
>     "Finances",
> 
>     "Government",
> 
>     "United Nations"
> 
>     ]
> 
>     },
> 
>     "files": [
> 
>     {
> 
>     "path": "data/cofog.csv",
> 
>     "fields": [
> 
>     {
> 
>     "id": "Code",
> 
>     "type": "string"
> 
>     },
> 
>     {
> 
>     "id": "Description",
> 
>     "type": "string"
> 
>     },
> 
>     {
> 
>     "id": "ExplanatoryNote",
> 
>     "type": "string"
> 
>     },
> 
>     {
> 
>     "id": "Change_date",
> 
>     "type": "date"
> 
>     }
> 
>     ]
> 
>     }
> 
>     ]
> 
>     }
> 
>     rgrp: Interested to hear from the LD community in things like
>     JSON-LD
>     ... Wrapping up... you could push this to a local Web site and
>     you have a data package
>     ... Not concerned whether we adopt this kind of package or
>     something that does the same thing, but it's how to publish
>     data packages without a data catalogue
>     ... Using JSON as your base schema language
>     ... got to make something that can be used really usually
>     ... Some people have suggested we drop JSON nad just use
>     another Excel worksheet to provide the data
>     ... Every step to making it easy, brings more uses of the data
>     ... We want to reduce the fritcion to getting, using and
>     sharing data
> 
>     Tomasz: Thanks Rufus
> 
>     <rgrp> I have finished
> 
>     <rgrp> Any questions :-) ?
> 
>     <Gwyn_Sutherlin> question
> 
>     <fhenning> PhilA2: w3c is aware of process for schemas. there's
>     a workshop planned for next year on exactly the issues that
>     rufus has been addressing.
> 
>     <scribe> scribe: fhenning
> 
>     <PhilA2> Gwyn_Sutherlin: Do you do work around unstructured
>     data - text, audio, video etc?
> 
>     <PhilA2> rgrp: Yes, we do, It's the Open Knowledge Foundation -
>     we're format agnostic
> 
>     <rgrp> open knowledge includes content, data etc
> 
>     <PhilA2> Gwyn_Sutherlin: Our cases are usually around
>     transparency and cirrpution
> 
>     <PhilA2> s/cirruption/corruption
> 
>     <rgrp> we do a lot around other topics including corruption :-)
>     eg. [22]http://okfnlabs.org/events/hackdays/lobbying.html
> 
>       [22] http://okfnlabs.org/events/hackdays/lobbying.html
> 
>     [sorry, the audio problems seem to be at our device . its'not
>     possible for me to do complete scribing at this point. could
>     you take over phil?]
> 
>     <PhilA2> DeirdreLee: Thanks Rufus for the presentation. Do you
>     see things like DCAT as added overhead? What tools do you see
>     for packahing data?
> 
>     <PhilA2> rgrp: That's my point. The spec allows you to build
>     the tool. We have a tool called DPM
> 
>     <rgrp> [23]http://dpm.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
> 
>       [23] http://dpm.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
> 
>     <PhilA2> rgrp: DCAT is in some ways format agnostic but it's an
>     LD format. For an Excel user, you can tell them in 30" how to
>     export in CSV. There's no "export in .n3" option
> 
>     <rgrp> metadata = ini file - xyz: abc
> 
>     <PhilA2> rgrp: Maybe the metadata file should be a .ini file
>     for a simple example
> 
>     <PhilA2> rgrp: Most formats are very simple, with JSON as the
>     most complex. Need things people can produce with the tools
>     they have
> 
>     <PhilA2> Tomasz: Thanks Rufus again
> 
>     <rgrp> see python, ruby, debs, nodejs etc - all have super
>     simple package formats ..
> 
>     <rgrp> also you need a reason for people to package - you need
>     something they can then do ... (e.g. get something into
>     postgres in 30s)
> 
> Serafin Olcoz on Openness and Reuse of Public Sector Information
> using Open Data Publishing, Decree
> 
>     yes phil
> 
>     <PhilA2> I love this line - The public sector is an archipelago
>     of competences and budgets
> 
>     [no it drops in and out - better if you do it phil]
> 
>     <PhilA2> scribe: PhilA2
> 
>     Olcoz: We decided to share all our code
>     ... Slides
>     [24]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/49911950/W3c%20-%20Open%20Assets.pd
>     f
>     ... Slide 2 has the key policies
>     ... Memorandum specifies the schema to use etc.
>     ... makes publication of source code etc.
>     ... If you want to develop software, you are obloged to see
>     what's already available and build on that
>     ... you need to write a report on various aspects. What you're
>     using, what you're contributing back etc. (under EUPL licence)
>     ... provide a functional description etc.
>     ... Also state what dependencies there are etc.
>     ... You are required to publish at least the dependencies as it
>     affects everyone, not just you
>     ... The aim is to have a global idea of what is being done
>     using public money to develop software
>     ... This is formalising the re-use process
> 
>       [24] http://dl.dropbox.com/u/49911950/W3c%20-%20Open%20Assets.pdf
> 
>     PhilA2: The obligation applies just to people being paid by the
>     public sector and not to third party developers?
> 
>     Olcoz: Yes
>     ... Private sector can take OSS and develop new products and
>     services based on the OSS directory
>     ... They may then realise the advantage of this and can, if
>     they want, open their own source code
>     ... Which we hope will create a virtuous cycle
>     ... We're offering a robust service 24/7/365
>     ... slide 5
>     ... We are actively encouraging development.
>     ... Supporting local enterprise and investment without having
>     to spend public sector money - an unimportant feature in the
>     current climate
>     ... We'd like others to share out approach of course and would
>     welcome a European approach
>     ... In order to allow people to use your OSS, you need to have
>     a portal to make it available and to be able to access other
>     repositories
>     ... the repository itself is an asset that has value
>     ... you can learn a lot about past and present components
>     ... if somethinng is under development and you can wait for it
>     to be ready before you use it, then you know to wait, If you
>     can't wait, you know you need to go your own way.
>     ... all the records are contained in an open data catalogue
>     ... Slide 9
>     ... We're agnostic about formats. It can be data, or text or
>     code etc.
>     ... We need to be able to federate our repositories
>     ... We defined various vocabularies, including for the re-use
>     process
>     ... We have the support of CTIC and others
>     ... also of ministry of Finance and Public Administration in Spain,
evaluating for use
>     across Spain
> 
>     <Tomasz> we will reschedule Elsa's presentation for the next
>     meeting
> 
>     Olcoz: talks about the schemas in use. Refers to RADion
>     ([25]http://www.w3.org/ns/radion) and the ISA Programme that
>     created it
> 
>       [25] http://www.w3.org/ns/radion)
> 
>     <Tomasz> but i would still like some discussion about Serafin's
>     talk
> 
>     Olcoz: Model can be used to link different sources of data from
>     the Web. Important to see repository itself as an asset -
>     needed to extend RADion I did not say this, I said that RADion is too
specific and we had to develop an Ontology Adion from which RADion is particular
cas that includes a instance of our Repository Asset. Considering a Repositoy as
an Asset it allows as to have semantic federation of a distributed hierarchy of
Repositories that RADIon or DCAT do not provide and requiere external
programming to have such a Federation due their models work on Silos. Adion
approach has also advantages to consider data or information coming from
Internet of things.

>     ... We find problems with ADMS and DCAT. They don't cover
>     everything we need I did not say this but DCAT and ADMS do not take care
properly of IPR of documentation attached to Data or Assets, but due to our
abstraction for Elemental Open Assests (Data, Apps, Reports, ando so on), these
documents are also Assets so their Distribution is able to properly deal with
IPR issues.

>     ... Three new portals launching in a couple of weeks' time. All
>     source code is open for re-use
> 
>     Tomasz: Thanks very much Serafin - very interesting
> 
>     Olcoz: If you need info about the decree - I've submitted links
>     to English resources to the IG
> 
>     Tomasz: Can you give us a sense of the size of the Basque
>     government involvement?
> 
>     Olcoz: We're still working on finishing the repositories so
>     we'll have to wait a few months to be able to report on
>     experience
> 
>     Tomasz: Is design for re-use part of the requirement of the new
>     software project?
> 
>     Olcoz: Not yet. That's the plan for the future
>     ... People often saw design as being very specific to a use. In
>     the early 90s, people began to change that view. Now you see a
>     lot of re-usable software components
>     ... We need to work on the guidelines around this
I also added that I will present by this Thursday this work to W3C SIG GLD
and that I will submit through it the vocabulary of Open Assets based on
Adion to W3C in order to be taken into account for future evolution of
standards related to Open Data and Re-use of Public Sector Information

 
>     Tomasz: Any more questions?
> 
>     Olcoz: I'd like to say I'm making a presentation on this to the
>     GLD WG this Thursday
>     ... Wants to make a Member Submission
> 
>     Tomasz: We're at the end of our time
>     ... Apologies to Elsa for moving your presentation to our next
>     meeting next month
>     ... A reminder that we have an open call for assistance with
>     developing the group's summary of the various presentations we
>     have received concerning social media
>     ... Next few meetings will be on open data - and so will
>     welcome guests and ideas for speakers
> 
>     <Gwyn_Sutherlin> thanks
> 
>     Tomasz: Thanks to speakers and scribes
>