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Re: [Minutes] 2015-06-15 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 21:31:39 +0200
Message-ID: <557F281B.30108@w3.org>
To: Julie Morris <julie@bisg.org>
CC: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Julie,

With Webex it is now quite difficult to track who is present.

Therefore, each participant should type present+ <name> in the irc 
channel immediately upon joining the call

Please refer to
- my earlier email and put in IRC present+ Julie Morris when joining.
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0018.html

- the WebEx instructions in the wiki:
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/WebEx

- See also Web Ex Best Practices Wiki page
https://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/WebExBestPractices

Therfore, please type in IRC "present+ Julie Morris" when joining the call.

If you can't connect simultaniouslly to IRC, just ask the scribe or the 
chair to add your name upon joining the call.

Meanwhile, I have added your name to today's minutes.

Best,
Thierry



On 15/06/2015 20:32, Julie Morris wrote:
> I was present- please add me to the attendees list.
>
> Thanks,
> Julie
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org
> <mailto:tmichel@w3.org>> wrote:
>
>     Hi all,
>
>     The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
>     dated 2015-06-15 are now available at
>
>     http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-minutes.html
>
>     These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
>     http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings
>
>     Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your
>     convenience.
>
>     Best,
>
>     Thierry Michel
>
>     ------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>         [1]W3C
>
>            [1] http://www.w3.org/
>
>                  Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
>
>     15 Jun 2015
>
>         [2]Agenda
>
>            [2] http://www.w3.org/mid/557B46E6.6060506@gmail.com
>
>         See also: [3]IRC log
>
>            [3] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-irc
>
>     Attendees
>
>         Present
>                Tzviya Siegman (tzviya), Ralph Swick (ralph), Ivan
>                Herman (ivan), Alan Stearns (astearns), Thierry Michel
>                (tmichel), Laura Fowler (lfowler), Dave Cramer (dauwhe),
>                Ben De Meester (bjdmeest),  Markus Gylling (mgylling),
>                Brady Duga (duga), Toru Kawakubo (kwkbtr).
>
>         Regrets
>                Luc Audrain, Phil Madans, Bill Kasdorf, Ayla Stein,
>                Heather Flanagan
>
>         Chair
>                Markus
>
>         Scribe
>                dauwhe, NickRuffilo
>
>     Contents
>
>           * [4]Topics
>               1. [5]Charter renewal update
>               2. [6]TPAC
>               3. [7]Summear break
>               4. [8]CSS needs
>           * [9]Summary of Action Items
>           __________________________________________________________
>
>         <trackbot> Date: 15 June 2015
>
>         <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
>
>         mgylling: approval of last week's minutes
>         ... any comments or objections?
>         ... minutes approved.
>         ... some administrivia:
>         ... update on status of charter renewal
>
>     Charter renewal update
>
>         ivan: ten days ago, the charter has been announced unofficially
>
>         <ivan> [10]Unofficail announcement
>
>           [10]
>     https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2015AprJun/0044.html
>
>         [furious typing]
>
>         scribe: not yet a formal vote; hoping for replies and comments
>
>         <ivan> [11]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html
>
>           [11] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html
>
>         scribe: we have one comment so far, from clapierre
>         ... we like that comment
>         ... Last Friday, I began to contact people in browser community
>         ... to get comments from that corner, no results yet.
>         ... important for all of us in member companies to give
>         comments
>         ... tell us where we're wrong, if things should be different
>         ... and positive comments are good, too
>         ... I don't know when we go for formal AC vote
>         ... we should probably wait for some comments
>         ... Does Ralph have anything to add?
>
>         Ralph: Nope.
>
>         mgylling: is the absence of comments a problem?
>
>         ivan: at this stage, no
>         ... when we get to the formal vote
>         ... then we need 5% of the membership, which is 19 members,
>         need to approve
>         ... if we don't get the five percent, then we have unpleasant
>         discussions with management
>
>         mgylling: for those of us who are not AC reps, we have been
>         given work: nudge our AC rep into making comments on the draft
>         ... what really matters is being able to rally votes when it
>         counts.
>
>         ivan: mid-July, probably
>
>         Ralph: that could be realistic
>
>         mgylling: the time of year when people are hardest to rally
>
>         ivan: we could have a longer voting period
>
>         Thierry: we need comments now; so we can change things
>         ... in later stages, we don't want to change
>
>         mgylling: moving on
>
>     TPAC
>
>         mgylling: time to register for TPAC
>         ... registering early makes w3c staff happy
>         ... we do yet know how many IG members will be there
>
>         <clapierre> 99%
>
>         <brady_duga> +1
>
>         brady_duga: I'm coming, but only for this meeting
>         ... if it's not going to happen I'd need to know
>
>         ivan: anyone who's sure now should register
>
>         mgylling: anyone sure they won't be going
>
>         tzviya: we did do a survey before we filled out room request
>         ... lots of people said they were coming
>
>         ivan: we should set up the F2F wiki page now
>
>         mgylling: who sets up the wiki?
>
>         ivan: any of us
>
>         mgylling: any questions or remarks about tpac?
>
>         <tmichel> I will set the wiki registration page for DPUB
>
>         <NickRuffilo> scribenick: NickRuffilo
>
>         "One thing we forgot to put on is a summer Hiatus or Summer
>         Break. We did this last summer - not meeting in July. The
>         question we have is whether we would want to do the same thing
>         this year?"
>
>     Summear break
>
>         nick: "I'll be poking people to get articles to create a
>         backlog"
>
>         Dave: "Lets just cancel individual meeting if we get enough
>         regrets? It seems like we have important things - charter, epub
>         web, etc"
>
>         <Karen_> +1 keep going and cancel ad hoc
>
>         Tzviya: "I think we should keep it going. Unless we get
>         regrets."
>
>         "NO SUMMER BREAK FOR YOU!" :)
>
>         Markus: "For next week, we'd like to get going again on topics
>         that have been discussed on the list requiring publication
>         identification. The problem of resource collection on the web.
>         It's Bill K's topic, but he's not here. We'll go into it more
>         next week and try to get more continuity. Let's define what is
>         actually needed to establish basic identities and unpackaged
>         identities. "
>
>         ACTUAL Ivan: "We've had all sorts of discussions via email,
>         which is a good starting point."
>
>     CSS needs
>
>         Markus: "on to today's main topic: There is a misconception
>         floating around. Ivan, can you repeat?"
>
>         <dauwhe> Here's the start of a list:
>         [12]https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/CSS_Priorities_for_the_Digi
>         tal_Publishing_Community
>
>           [12]
>     https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/CSS_Priorities_for_the_Digital_Publishing_Community
>
>         Ivan: "The observation goes that somehow there were people with
>         the impression that there are no open issues for CSS features
>         needed by this community. To be self-critical, we have not
>         publishes very often any documents on this. That is why we
>         thought to have this topic - to have a better view of what
>         else, beyond pagination, are the things that CSS should
>         provide, but does not. We all know
>
>         Pagination is a major issue, but what else is there?"
>
>         Dave: "I would mention that I only started the WIKI page this
>         morning, and I included pagination, even though it didn't seem
>         necessary. I tried to categorize things logically. Foundations,
>         typography,..."
>         ... "I'm not quite sure how we'd want to discuss this: One sad
>         observation is that many of the things mentioned here have been
>         in CSS drafts (and some were removed - due to at risk from no
>         implementations)"
>
>         Ivan: "Looking at the list - there is a reference here on GRID.
>         The way I understand it is that there are loads of modules in
>         CSS3. I don't see from this list a kind of categorization -
>         something saying 'this is what we need, but it's not a
>         standard' or 'it's not what we need and here's where' or 'this
>         is almost what we need but here's what's different'. In terms
>         of functionality as well as
>
>         evolution in the working group life. "
>
>         Dave: "Agreed. There are some things that the spec is nice, but
>         it hasn't been implemented. Some things that aren't fully there
>         yet, some things that haven't been spec'd at all..."
>
>         Ivan: "For each bullet item we need to add the grid of where
>         things are."
>
>         Markus: "Your typography section sits well with me because it
>         describes things from a publisher's perspective which is very
>         important. When you say in pagination 'GCPM' what does that
>         mean? Everything in GCPM? If we could have the first column
>         similar to what you have in typography, that would be a great
>         short-description of what a publisher might need."
>
>         <astearns> sorry - can't seem to get it to work
>
>         Dave: "GCPM handles cross-reference, but it hasn't been
>         implemented by the browser."
>
>         Tzviya: "It's great that certain things exists in the spec, but
>         if it hasn't been implemented, then it's important to elevate
>         it to Houdini or something else to ensure that it is handled."
>
>         Markus: "As a side-note, we need to keep in mind the potential
>         accessibility repurcussions. There is a potential accessibility
>         hazard there. I believe that WCAG 2 says that we shouldn't be
>         using this for things beyond decoration."
>
>         <liam> [wcag restriction on generated content may also come
>         from issue of fallback for when there's no CSS]
>
>         Dave: "The main accessability issue is that there are bugs
>         where content may not be selectable. That might be something to
>         add to this list - is better generated content for
>         accessibility/implementation."
>
>         Alan: "Initial intent was decoration, but it's now used for
>         content as well, as content is used as a decoration and not
>         actual content."
>         ... "I agree that we need to have an evalution of all these
>         things. Where are they - are they usable? I am a bit too close
>         to give things a realistic view. And there are some issues in
>         translation - typographical features that work great for fixed
>         layout (printing) but when we add them to the web, which is
>         reflowable, where quite a lot more needs to be automated by the
>         browser. So much is
>
>         <scribe> done by hand. There is something in the CSS-line that
>         defines how the boxes get put into the grid - it's something
>         publishing does by hand. While the first section of the
>         LINEGRID module is good, the 2nd section isn't there yet."
>         ...: "We should also be able to access alternate glyphs. I'm
>         not sure there is a good way of doing that on the web. "
>
>         Dave: "Prince do have extensions that do that - although they
>         may not be useful..."
>
>         Markus: "In terms of appending to this table - there are quite
>         a few of us, that would want to add their favorite missing
>         features into the table. I would like to announce and open
>         period of time where we should invade Dave's work. And add
>         anything - it's OK if it is incomplete, we can work to fill it
>         in. We haven't talked about prioritization - but that tends to
>         be quite messy. Let us wait
>
>         until the table starts to mature then we can determine the best
>         way."
>
>         Ivan: "I was wondering - how to start doing that - to help out
>         dave. "
>
>         Dave: "it would help to get more things for the list.
>         Collecting ideas is the hard part."
>
>         Ivan: "I have specific questions - what I don't see here is
>         about control over fonts - in some sense, what alan was
>         referring to. Are the features to control fonts and how fonts
>         are used - are they already satisfactory for this community?
>         ... "Maybe vlad is in position."
>
>         <astearns> need wider implementation of: font-feature-settings,
>         subsetting, font loading events...
>
>         <liam> +1 to lack of access to actual stylistic variant fonts
>
>         Dave: "I know that I've run into CSS's classification of font
>         properties - does not come close to covering the range of
>         features that existing fonts have. One example is Adobe has
>         many optical weights (captions, subheads) which CSS has no
>         notion of that"
>         ... "some font familys have 160 different fonts to the family.
>         CSS is not up to that challenge."
>         ... "8 or nine wieghts, optical properties,
>         so-on-and-so-forth."
>
>         Tzviya: "By linking to the existing modules that are relevant,
>         you've pretty much covered all of our priorities?"
>
>         Dave: "yes, it needs to be done at a more gradual level."
>
>         Markus: "We should be noting atomic uses, not just high-level."
>
>         Tzviya: "Homework is to go through the modules and say: 'we
>         need this' etc"
>
>         <Zakim> mgylling, you wanted to not forget to mention CJK
>
>         Markus: "One thing we owe it to China/Japan/Korea to do is to
>         get something well versed in their typographical needs, to add
>         whatever is needed there. Now that we have atenna house in the
>         IG, that shouldn't be a problem, but it strikes me that what we
>         have in the epub3 CSS profile is a number of vendor-prefix
>         properties built on top of CSS context. All of these things are
>         used for all epubs in
>
>         those regions, and they represent items that are missing from
>         CSS. We can go through that list and pick out features that
>         aren't supported as of yet."
>
>         Markus: "Such as vertical centering, Who from antenna house is
>         on the call today? "
>
>         Mike Miller: "I'll pass this information on"
>
>         Markus: "We really need a good list of features from a japanese
>         point of view."
>
>         Ivan: "A similar question for fonts - Are publishers happy with
>         the control of Color? It's improved with HSL and the A
>         parameter - which is great compared to old CSS. Maybe alan
>         knows - is it possible to express very precise colors?"
>         ... "If not, is it something publishers need?"
>
>         tzviya: "anyone familiar with HSLA or RGBA likes it more than
>         CMYK
>
>         Ivan: "The question - is what is in CSS satisfactory or not?"
>
>         Tzviya: "I would need to research, but any issues ... i see
>         where you're going... It has more to do with screens."
>
>         <Ralph> Nick: Brady
>
>         "Crappy monitors means crappy interpretation"
>
>         Nick: "Screens are limitors - CSS colors are fine."
>
>         Markus: "The group wants to contribute to the group's page.
>         Mike is going to get Antenna house to note on the items related
>         to japanese. We should reach out to other locals. "
>         ... "Tzviya, sounded like you're gearing up to add other
>         things."
>
>         Dave: "I'm also wondering if - one possibility - is to keep the
>         wiki page in a "listy-texty" format so that we do tables
>         elsewhere - on Github or something. Wiki tables - especially
>         complicated - are going to be difficult..."
>
>         Ivan: "If you put a table on the same level - it creates a
>         table.html..."
>
>         markus: "contributors still use the wiki?"
>         ...: "Do we just have suggestions on the wiki? Or everyone
>         hooking up to GIThub?"
>
>         DavE: "We'll get more input if we don't require the use of
>         github. I offer to anyone, if you want to make changes to a
>         github doc - contact me or Ivan."
>         ... "use the wiki as the funnel. People who are comfortable
>         with the github can use it."
>         ... "CSS tends to take a lot of notice on the issues of
>         languages, JL req, and various other scripts. In some sense,
>         we're not the experts on those languages."
>
>         Nick: "Possibly use GoogleDocs spreadsheets for the giant
>         table"
>
>         <astearns> is table sorting a publishing need?
>
>         <clapierre> Google Docs is good although it isn't yet 100%
>         accessible
>
>         Ivan: "Probably, we should look at what the other groups are
>         doing for the other languages/scripts, which have direct
>         channels to the CSS working group. We may not want to duplicate
>         work."
>         ... "As for googledoc, we may not want to introduce more
>         efforts"
>
>         Markus: "One final question - Explain to me how this work
>         relates to LatinREQ. And tell me how there will not be
>         duplication of intent and LatinREQ."
>
>         <astearns> this is input to LatinReq
>
>         Dave: "IN some cases the motivation for this effort is
>         communication with W3C. From the email i was getting from Ivan,
>         this is more helping W3C management with Priorities."
>
>         Markus: "Exactly. Just making sure there is no duplication."
>
>         Dave: "I like alan's comments - this could be INPUT to Latin
>         REQ. LatinREQ has been agnostic in how these features have been
>         implemented. "This is how things are" and less 'CSS can do THIS
>         but not THAT. Does LatinREQ goes in a direction where it calls
>         out what is possible and suggest new CSS features? We don't go
>         into any detail in the table either. "
>
>         Tzviya: "I wanted to add that this is the executive summary.
>         LatinREQ is intentionally detailed. 'We know it exists, but it
>         doesn't work in the real world' so it becomes more of a call to
>         action."
>
>         Dave: "Just don't make us implement this as annotations to
>         LatinREQ"
>
>         Markus: "We're at the end. Thank you all, please help the group
>         out in filling the WIKI page with missing CSS features. Keep in
>         mind that we plan for next week - publication identification
>         and resource identification on the web."
>
>     Summary of Action Items
>
>         [End of minutes]
>           __________________________________________________________
>
>
>          Minutes formatted by David Booth's [13]scribe.perl version
>          1.140 ([14]CVS log)
>          $Date: 2015/06/15 16:13:47 $
>           __________________________________________________________
>
>           [13]
>     http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
>           [14] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
>
>     Scribe.perl diagnostic output
>
>         [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
>     This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30
>     Check for newer version at [15]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
>     scribe/
>
>           [15] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/
>
>     Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
>
>     Succeeded: s/???/Thierry/
>     Succeeded: s/Ivan/Markus/
>     Succeeded: s/WPIC/WCAG/
>     Succeeded: s/Prints/Prince/
>     Succeeded: s/HSBA/HSLA/
>     Succeeded: s/@@/Brady/
>     Succeeded: s/alot/a lot/
>     Found ScribeNick: dauwhe
>     Found ScribeNick: NickRuffilo
>     Inferring Scribes: dauwhe, NickRuffilo
>     Scribes: dauwhe, NickRuffilo
>     ScribeNicks: dauwhe, NickRuffilo
>     Default Present: lfowler
>     Present: lfowler Dave_Cramer mgylling Ivan_Herman astearns RalphSwick To
>     ru_Kawakubo duga Thierry Michel Tzviya_Siegman Ben_De_Meester
>
>     WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Luc_Audrain, Phil_M
>     adans)
>     Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the lis
>     t,
>     such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ Bill_Kasdorf
>
>     Regrets: Luc_Audrain Phil_Madans Bill_Kasdorf Ayla_Stein Heather
>     Agenda: [16]http://www.w3.org/mid/557B46E6.6060506@gmail.com
>     Found Date: 15 Jun 2015
>     Guessing minutes URL: [17]http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-minutes.html
>     People with action items:
>
>           [16] http://www.w3.org/mid/557B46E6.6060506@gmail.com
>           [17] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-minutes.html
>
>
>         [End of [18]scribe.perl diagnostic output]
>
>           [18]
>     http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
>
>
>
>
>         [1]W3C
>
>            [1] http://www.w3.org/
>
>                  Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
>
>     15 Jun 2015
>
>         [2]Agenda
>
>            [2] http://www.w3.org/mid/557B46E6.6060506@gmail.com
>
>         See also: [3]IRC log
>
>            [3] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-irc
>
>     Attendees
>
>         Present
>                Tzviya Siegman (tzviya), Ralph Swick (ralph), Ivan
>                Herman (ivan), Alan Stearns (astearns), Thierry Michel
>                (tmichel), Laura Fowler (lfowler), Dave Cramer (dauwhe),
>                Ben De Meester (bjdmeest),  Markus Gylling (mgylling),
>                Brady Duga (duga), Toru Kawakubo (kwkbtr).
>
>         Regrets
>                Luc Audrain, Phil Madans, Bill Kasdorf, Ayla Stein,
>                Heather Flanagan
>
>         Chair
>                Markus
>
>         Scribe
>                dauwhe, NickRuffilo
>
>     Contents
>
>           * [4]Topics
>               1. [5]Charter renewal update
>               2. [6]TPAC
>               3. [7]Summear break
>               4. [8]CSS needs
>           * [9]Summary of Action Items
>           __________________________________________________________
>
>         <trackbot> Date: 15 June 2015
>
>         <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
>
>         mgylling: approval of last week's minutes
>         ... any comments or objections?
>         ... minutes approved.
>         ... some administrivia:
>         ... update on status of charter renewal
>
>     Charter renewal update
>
>         ivan: ten days ago, the charter has been announced unofficially
>
>         <ivan> [10]Unofficail announcement
>
>           [10]
>     https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2015AprJun/0044.html
>
>         [furious typing]
>
>         scribe: not yet a formal vote; hoping for replies and comments
>
>         <ivan> [11]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html
>
>           [11] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html
>
>         scribe: we have one comment so far, from clapierre
>         ... we like that comment
>         ... Last Friday, I began to contact people in browser community
>         ... to get comments from that corner, no results yet.
>         ... important for all of us in member companies to give
>         comments
>         ... tell us where we're wrong, if things should be different
>         ... and positive comments are good, too
>         ... I don't know when we go for formal AC vote
>         ... we should probably wait for some comments
>         ... Does Ralph have anything to add?
>
>         Ralph: Nope.
>
>         mgylling: is the absence of comments a problem?
>
>         ivan: at this stage, no
>         ... when we get to the formal vote
>         ... then we need 5% of the membership, which is 19 members,
>         need to approve
>         ... if we don't get the five percent, then we have unpleasant
>         discussions with management
>
>         mgylling: for those of us who are not AC reps, we have been
>         given work: nudge our AC rep into making comments on the draft
>         ... what really matters is being able to rally votes when it
>         counts.
>
>         ivan: mid-July, probably
>
>         Ralph: that could be realistic
>
>         mgylling: the time of year when people are hardest to rally
>
>         ivan: we could have a longer voting period
>
>         Thierry: we need comments now; so we can change things
>         ... in later stages, we don't want to change
>
>         mgylling: moving on
>
>     TPAC
>
>         mgylling: time to register for TPAC
>         ... registering early makes w3c staff happy
>         ... we do yet know how many IG members will be there
>
>         <clapierre> 99%
>
>         <brady_duga> +1
>
>         brady_duga: I'm coming, but only for this meeting
>         ... if it's not going to happen I'd need to know
>
>         ivan: anyone who's sure now should register
>
>         mgylling: anyone sure they won't be going
>
>         tzviya: we did do a survey before we filled out room request
>         ... lots of people said they were coming
>
>         ivan: we should set up the F2F wiki page now
>
>         mgylling: who sets up the wiki?
>
>         ivan: any of us
>
>         mgylling: any questions or remarks about tpac?
>
>         <tmichel> I will set the wiki registration page for DPUB
>
>         <NickRuffilo> scribenick: NickRuffilo
>
>         "One thing we forgot to put on is a summer Hiatus or Summer
>         Break. We did this last summer - not meeting in July. The
>         question we have is whether we would want to do the same thing
>         this year?"
>
>     Summear break
>
>         nick: "I'll be poking people to get articles to create a
>         backlog"
>
>         Dave: "Lets just cancel individual meeting if we get enough
>         regrets? It seems like we have important things - charter, epub
>         web, etc"
>
>         <Karen_> +1 keep going and cancel ad hoc
>
>         Tzviya: "I think we should keep it going. Unless we get
>         regrets."
>
>         "NO SUMMER BREAK FOR YOU!" :)
>
>         Markus: "For next week, we'd like to get going again on topics
>         that have been discussed on the list requiring publication
>         identification. The problem of resource collection on the web.
>         It's Bill K's topic, but he's not here. We'll go into it more
>         next week and try to get more continuity. Let's define what is
>         actually needed to establish basic identities and unpackaged
>         identities. "
>
>         ACTUAL Ivan: "We've had all sorts of discussions via email,
>         which is a good starting point."
>
>     CSS needs
>
>         Markus: "on to today's main topic: There is a misconception
>         floating around. Ivan, can you repeat?"
>
>         <dauwhe> Here's the start of a list:
>         [12]https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/CSS_Priorities_for_the_Digi
>         tal_Publishing_Community
>
>           [12]
>     https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/CSS_Priorities_for_the_Digital_Publishing_Community
>
>         Ivan: "The observation goes that somehow there were people with
>         the impression that there are no open issues for CSS features
>         needed by this community. To be self-critical, we have not
>         publishes very often any documents on this. That is why we
>         thought to have this topic - to have a better view of what
>         else, beyond pagination, are the things that CSS should
>         provide, but does not. We all know
>
>         Pagination is a major issue, but what else is there?"
>
>         Dave: "I would mention that I only started the WIKI page this
>         morning, and I included pagination, even though it didn't seem
>         necessary. I tried to categorize things logically. Foundations,
>         typography,..."
>         ... "I'm not quite sure how we'd want to discuss this: One sad
>         observation is that many of the things mentioned here have been
>         in CSS drafts (and some were removed - due to at risk from no
>         implementations)"
>
>         Ivan: "Looking at the list - there is a reference here on GRID.
>         The way I understand it is that there are loads of modules in
>         CSS3. I don't see from this list a kind of categorization -
>         something saying 'this is what we need, but it's not a
>         standard' or 'it's not what we need and here's where' or 'this
>         is almost what we need but here's what's different'. In terms
>         of functionality as well as
>
>         evolution in the working group life. "
>
>         Dave: "Agreed. There are some things that the spec is nice, but
>         it hasn't been implemented. Some things that aren't fully there
>         yet, some things that haven't been spec'd at all..."
>
>         Ivan: "For each bullet item we need to add the grid of where
>         things are."
>
>         Markus: "Your typography section sits well with me because it
>         describes things from a publisher's perspective which is very
>         important. When you say in pagination 'GCPM' what does that
>         mean? Everything in GCPM? If we could have the first column
>         similar to what you have in typography, that would be a great
>         short-description of what a publisher might need."
>
>         <astearns> sorry - can't seem to get it to work
>
>         Dave: "GCPM handles cross-reference, but it hasn't been
>         implemented by the browser."
>
>         Tzviya: "It's great that certain things exists in the spec, but
>         if it hasn't been implemented, then it's important to elevate
>         it to Houdini or something else to ensure that it is handled."
>
>         Markus: "As a side-note, we need to keep in mind the potential
>         accessibility repurcussions. There is a potential accessibility
>         hazard there. I believe that WCAG 2 says that we shouldn't be
>         using this for things beyond decoration."
>
>         <liam> [wcag restriction on generated content may also come
>         from issue of fallback for when there's no CSS]
>
>         Dave: "The main accessability issue is that there are bugs
>         where content may not be selectable. That might be something to
>         add to this list - is better generated content for
>         accessibility/implementation."
>
>         Alan: "Initial intent was decoration, but it's now used for
>         content as well, as content is used as a decoration and not
>         actual content."
>         ... "I agree that we need to have an evalution of all these
>         things. Where are they - are they usable? I am a bit too close
>         to give things a realistic view. And there are some issues in
>         translation - typographical features that work great for fixed
>         layout (printing) but when we add them to the web, which is
>         reflowable, where quite a lot more needs to be automated by the
>         browser. So much is
>
>         <scribe> done by hand. There is something in the CSS-line that
>         defines how the boxes get put into the grid - it's something
>         publishing does by hand. While the first section of the
>         LINEGRID module is good, the 2nd section isn't there yet."
>         ...: "We should also be able to access alternate glyphs. I'm
>         not sure there is a good way of doing that on the web. "
>
>         Dave: "Prince do have extensions that do that - although they
>         may not be useful..."
>
>         Markus: "In terms of appending to this table - there are quite
>         a few of us, that would want to add their favorite missing
>         features into the table. I would like to announce and open
>         period of time where we should invade Dave's work. And add
>         anything - it's OK if it is incomplete, we can work to fill it
>         in. We haven't talked about prioritization - but that tends to
>         be quite messy. Let us wait
>
>         until the table starts to mature then we can determine the best
>         way."
>
>         Ivan: "I was wondering - how to start doing that - to help out
>         dave. "
>
>         Dave: "it would help to get more things for the list.
>         Collecting ideas is the hard part."
>
>         Ivan: "I have specific questions - what I don't see here is
>         about control over fonts - in some sense, what alan was
>         referring to. Are the features to control fonts and how fonts
>         are used - are they already satisfactory for this community?
>         ... "Maybe vlad is in position."
>
>         <astearns> need wider implementation of: font-feature-settings,
>         subsetting, font loading events...
>
>         <liam> +1 to lack of access to actual stylistic variant fonts
>
>         Dave: "I know that I've run into CSS's classification of font
>         properties - does not come close to covering the range of
>         features that existing fonts have. One example is Adobe has
>         many optical weights (captions, subheads) which CSS has no
>         notion of that"
>         ... "some font familys have 160 different fonts to the family.
>         CSS is not up to that challenge."
>         ... "8 or nine wieghts, optical properties,
>         so-on-and-so-forth."
>
>         Tzviya: "By linking to the existing modules that are relevant,
>         you've pretty much covered all of our priorities?"
>
>         Dave: "yes, it needs to be done at a more gradual level."
>
>         Markus: "We should be noting atomic uses, not just high-level."
>
>         Tzviya: "Homework is to go through the modules and say: 'we
>         need this' etc"
>
>         <Zakim> mgylling, you wanted to not forget to mention CJK
>
>         Markus: "One thing we owe it to China/Japan/Korea to do is to
>         get something well versed in their typographical needs, to add
>         whatever is needed there. Now that we have atenna house in the
>         IG, that shouldn't be a problem, but it strikes me that what we
>         have in the epub3 CSS profile is a number of vendor-prefix
>         properties built on top of CSS context. All of these things are
>         used for all epubs in
>
>         those regions, and they represent items that are missing from
>         CSS. We can go through that list and pick out features that
>         aren't supported as of yet."
>
>         Markus: "Such as vertical centering, Who from antenna house is
>         on the call today? "
>
>         Mike Miller: "I'll pass this information on"
>
>         Markus: "We really need a good list of features from a japanese
>         point of view."
>
>         Ivan: "A similar question for fonts - Are publishers happy with
>         the control of Color? It's improved with HSL and the A
>         parameter - which is great compared to old CSS. Maybe alan
>         knows - is it possible to express very precise colors?"
>         ... "If not, is it something publishers need?"
>
>         tzviya: "anyone familiar with HSLA or RGBA likes it more than
>         CMYK
>
>         Ivan: "The question - is what is in CSS satisfactory or not?"
>
>         Tzviya: "I would need to research, but any issues ... i see
>         where you're going... It has more to do with screens."
>
>         <Ralph> Nick: Brady
>
>         "Crappy monitors means crappy interpretation"
>
>         Nick: "Screens are limitors - CSS colors are fine."
>
>         Markus: "The group wants to contribute to the group's page.
>         Mike is going to get Antenna house to note on the items related
>         to japanese. We should reach out to other locals. "
>         ... "Tzviya, sounded like you're gearing up to add other
>         things."
>
>         Dave: "I'm also wondering if - one possibility - is to keep the
>         wiki page in a "listy-texty" format so that we do tables
>         elsewhere - on Github or something. Wiki tables - especially
>         complicated - are going to be difficult..."
>
>         Ivan: "If you put a table on the same level - it creates a
>         table.html..."
>
>         markus: "contributors still use the wiki?"
>         ...: "Do we just have suggestions on the wiki? Or everyone
>         hooking up to GIThub?"
>
>         DavE: "We'll get more input if we don't require the use of
>         github. I offer to anyone, if you want to make changes to a
>         github doc - contact me or Ivan."
>         ... "use the wiki as the funnel. People who are comfortable
>         with the github can use it."
>         ... "CSS tends to take a lot of notice on the issues of
>         languages, JL req, and various other scripts. In some sense,
>         we're not the experts on those languages."
>
>         Nick: "Possibly use GoogleDocs spreadsheets for the giant
>         table"
>
>         <astearns> is table sorting a publishing need?
>
>         <clapierre> Google Docs is good although it isn't yet 100%
>         accessible
>
>         Ivan: "Probably, we should look at what the other groups are
>         doing for the other languages/scripts, which have direct
>         channels to the CSS working group. We may not want to duplicate
>         work."
>         ... "As for googledoc, we may not want to introduce more
>         efforts"
>
>         Markus: "One final question - Explain to me how this work
>         relates to LatinREQ. And tell me how there will not be
>         duplication of intent and LatinREQ."
>
>         <astearns> this is input to LatinReq
>
>         Dave: "IN some cases the motivation for this effort is
>         communication with W3C. From the email i was getting from Ivan,
>         this is more helping W3C management with Priorities."
>
>         Markus: "Exactly. Just making sure there is no duplication."
>
>         Dave: "I like alan's comments - this could be INPUT to Latin
>         REQ. LatinREQ has been agnostic in how these features have been
>         implemented. "This is how things are" and less 'CSS can do THIS
>         but not THAT. Does LatinREQ goes in a direction where it calls
>         out what is possible and suggest new CSS features? We don't go
>         into any detail in the table either. "
>
>         Tzviya: "I wanted to add that this is the executive summary.
>         LatinREQ is intentionally detailed. 'We know it exists, but it
>         doesn't work in the real world' so it becomes more of a call to
>         action."
>
>         Dave: "Just don't make us implement this as annotations to
>         LatinREQ"
>
>         Markus: "We're at the end. Thank you all, please help the group
>         out in filling the WIKI page with missing CSS features. Keep in
>         mind that we plan for next week - publication identification
>         and resource identification on the web."
>
>     Summary of Action Items
>
>         [End of minutes]
>           __________________________________________________________
>
>
>          Minutes formatted by David Booth's [13]scribe.perl version
>          1.140 ([14]CVS log)
>          $Date: 2015/06/15 16:13:47 $
>           __________________________________________________________
>
>           [13]
>     http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
>           [14] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
>
>     Scribe.perl diagnostic output
>
>         [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
>     This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30
>     Check for newer version at [15]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
>     scribe/
>
>           [15] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/
>
>     Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
>
>     Succeeded: s/???/Thierry/
>     Succeeded: s/Ivan/Markus/
>     Succeeded: s/WPIC/WCAG/
>     Succeeded: s/Prints/Prince/
>     Succeeded: s/HSBA/HSLA/
>     Succeeded: s/@@/Brady/
>     Succeeded: s/alot/a lot/
>     Found ScribeNick: dauwhe
>     Found ScribeNick: NickRuffilo
>     Inferring Scribes: dauwhe, NickRuffilo
>     Scribes: dauwhe, NickRuffilo
>     ScribeNicks: dauwhe, NickRuffilo
>     Default Present: lfowler
>     Present: lfowler Dave_Cramer mgylling Ivan_Herman astearns RalphSwick To
>     ru_Kawakubo duga Thierry Michel Tzviya_Siegman Ben_De_Meester
>
>     WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Luc_Audrain, Phil_M
>     adans)
>     Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the lis
>     t,
>     such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ Bill_Kasdorf
>
>     Regrets: Luc_Audrain Phil_Madans Bill_Kasdorf Ayla_Stein Heather
>     Agenda: [16]http://www.w3.org/mid/557B46E6.6060506@gmail.com
>     Found Date: 15 Jun 2015
>     Guessing minutes URL: [17]http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-minutes.html
>     People with action items:
>
>           [16] http://www.w3.org/mid/557B46E6.6060506@gmail.com
>           [17] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-minutes.html
>
>
>         [End of [18]scribe.perl diagnostic output]
>
>           [18]
>     http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Julie Morris____*
>
> Project Manager: Standards & Best Practices____
>
> Book Industry Study Group | BISG.org <http://www.bisg.org/>____
>
> Tel: 646-336-7141 Ext 14 <tel:646-336-7141%20Ext%2014>____
>
> Email: julie@bisg.org <mailto:julie@bisg.org>
>
Received on Monday, 15 June 2015 19:31:51 UTC

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