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[Minutes] 2015-06-15 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 19:00:08 +0200
Message-ID: <557F0498.70605@w3.org>
To: "public-digipub-ig@w3.org >> W3C Digital Publishing IG" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Hi all,

The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference 
dated 2015-06-15 are now available at

     http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-minutes.html

These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
     http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.

Best,

Thierry Michel

------------------------------------------



    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

             Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

15 Jun 2015

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://www.w3.org/mid/557B46E6.6060506@gmail.com

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Tzviya Siegman (tzviya), Ralph Swick (ralph), Ivan
           Herman (ivan), Alan Stearns (astearns), Thierry Michel
           (tmichel), Laura Fowler (lfowler), Dave Cramer (dauwhe),
           Ben De Meester (bjdmeest),  Markus Gylling (mgylling),
           Brady Duga (duga), Toru Kawakubo (kwkbtr).

    Regrets
           Luc Audrain, Phil Madans, Bill Kasdorf, Ayla Stein,
           Heather Flanagan

    Chair
           Markus

    Scribe
           dauwhe, NickRuffilo

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Charter renewal update
          2. [6]TPAC
          3. [7]Summear break
          4. [8]CSS needs
      * [9]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 15 June 2015

    <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe

    mgylling: approval of last week's minutes
    ... any comments or objections?
    ... minutes approved.
    ... some administrivia:
    ... update on status of charter renewal

Charter renewal update

    ivan: ten days ago, the charter has been announced unofficially

    <ivan> [10]Unofficail announcement

      [10] 
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2015AprJun/0044.html

    [furious typing]

    scribe: not yet a formal vote; hoping for replies and comments

    <ivan> [11]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html

      [11] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html

    scribe: we have one comment so far, from clapierre
    ... we like that comment
    ... Last Friday, I began to contact people in browser community
    ... to get comments from that corner, no results yet.
    ... important for all of us in member companies to give
    comments
    ... tell us where we're wrong, if things should be different
    ... and positive comments are good, too
    ... I don't know when we go for formal AC vote
    ... we should probably wait for some comments
    ... Does Ralph have anything to add?

    Ralph: Nope.

    mgylling: is the absence of comments a problem?

    ivan: at this stage, no
    ... when we get to the formal vote
    ... then we need 5% of the membership, which is 19 members,
    need to approve
    ... if we don't get the five percent, then we have unpleasant
    discussions with management

    mgylling: for those of us who are not AC reps, we have been
    given work: nudge our AC rep into making comments on the draft
    ... what really matters is being able to rally votes when it
    counts.

    ivan: mid-July, probably

    Ralph: that could be realistic

    mgylling: the time of year when people are hardest to rally

    ivan: we could have a longer voting period

    Thierry: we need comments now; so we can change things
    ... in later stages, we don't want to change

    mgylling: moving on

TPAC

    mgylling: time to register for TPAC
    ... registering early makes w3c staff happy
    ... we do yet know how many IG members will be there

    <clapierre> 99%

    <brady_duga> +1

    brady_duga: I'm coming, but only for this meeting
    ... if it's not going to happen I'd need to know

    ivan: anyone who's sure now should register

    mgylling: anyone sure they won't be going

    tzviya: we did do a survey before we filled out room request
    ... lots of people said they were coming

    ivan: we should set up the F2F wiki page now

    mgylling: who sets up the wiki?

    ivan: any of us

    mgylling: any questions or remarks about tpac?

    <tmichel> I will set the wiki registration page for DPUB

    <NickRuffilo> scribenick: NickRuffilo

    "One thing we forgot to put on is a summer Hiatus or Summer
    Break. We did this last summer - not meeting in July. The
    question we have is whether we would want to do the same thing
    this year?"

Summear break

    nick: "I'll be poking people to get articles to create a
    backlog"

    Dave: "Lets just cancel individual meeting if we get enough
    regrets? It seems like we have important things - charter, epub
    web, etc"

    <Karen_> +1 keep going and cancel ad hoc

    Tzviya: "I think we should keep it going. Unless we get
    regrets."

    "NO SUMMER BREAK FOR YOU!" :)

    Markus: "For next week, we'd like to get going again on topics
    that have been discussed on the list requiring publication
    identification. The problem of resource collection on the web.
    It's Bill K's topic, but he's not here. We'll go into it more
    next week and try to get more continuity. Let's define what is
    actually needed to establish basic identities and unpackaged
    identities. "

    ACTUAL Ivan: "We've had all sorts of discussions via email,
    which is a good starting point."

CSS needs

    Markus: "on to today's main topic: There is a misconception
    floating around. Ivan, can you repeat?"

    <dauwhe> Here's the start of a list:
    [12]https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/CSS_Priorities_for_the_Digi
    tal_Publishing_Community

      [12] 
https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/CSS_Priorities_for_the_Digital_Publishing_Community

    Ivan: "The observation goes that somehow there were people with
    the impression that there are no open issues for CSS features
    needed by this community. To be self-critical, we have not
    publishes very often any documents on this. That is why we
    thought to have this topic - to have a better view of what
    else, beyond pagination, are the things that CSS should
    provide, but does not. We all know

    Pagination is a major issue, but what else is there?"

    Dave: "I would mention that I only started the WIKI page this
    morning, and I included pagination, even though it didn't seem
    necessary. I tried to categorize things logically. Foundations,
    typography,..."
    ... "I'm not quite sure how we'd want to discuss this: One sad
    observation is that many of the things mentioned here have been
    in CSS drafts (and some were removed - due to at risk from no
    implementations)"

    Ivan: "Looking at the list - there is a reference here on GRID.
    The way I understand it is that there are loads of modules in
    CSS3. I don't see from this list a kind of categorization -
    something saying 'this is what we need, but it's not a
    standard' or 'it's not what we need and here's where' or 'this
    is almost what we need but here's what's different'. In terms
    of functionality as well as

    evolution in the working group life. "

    Dave: "Agreed. There are some things that the spec is nice, but
    it hasn't been implemented. Some things that aren't fully there
    yet, some things that haven't been spec'd at all..."

    Ivan: "For each bullet item we need to add the grid of where
    things are."

    Markus: "Your typography section sits well with me because it
    describes things from a publisher's perspective which is very
    important. When you say in pagination 'GCPM' what does that
    mean? Everything in GCPM? If we could have the first column
    similar to what you have in typography, that would be a great
    short-description of what a publisher might need."

    <astearns> sorry - can't seem to get it to work

    Dave: "GCPM handles cross-reference, but it hasn't been
    implemented by the browser."

    Tzviya: "It's great that certain things exists in the spec, but
    if it hasn't been implemented, then it's important to elevate
    it to Houdini or something else to ensure that it is handled."

    Markus: "As a side-note, we need to keep in mind the potential
    accessibility repurcussions. There is a potential accessibility
    hazard there. I believe that WCAG 2 says that we shouldn't be
    using this for things beyond decoration."

    <liam> [wcag restriction on generated content may also come
    from issue of fallback for when there's no CSS]

    Dave: "The main accessability issue is that there are bugs
    where content may not be selectable. That might be something to
    add to this list - is better generated content for
    accessibility/implementation."

    Alan: "Initial intent was decoration, but it's now used for
    content as well, as content is used as a decoration and not
    actual content."
    ... "I agree that we need to have an evalution of all these
    things. Where are they - are they usable? I am a bit too close
    to give things a realistic view. And there are some issues in
    translation - typographical features that work great for fixed
    layout (printing) but when we add them to the web, which is
    reflowable, where quite a lot more needs to be automated by the
    browser. So much is

    <scribe> done by hand. There is something in the CSS-line that
    defines how the boxes get put into the grid - it's something
    publishing does by hand. While the first section of the
    LINEGRID module is good, the 2nd section isn't there yet."
    ...: "We should also be able to access alternate glyphs. I'm
    not sure there is a good way of doing that on the web. "

    Dave: "Prince do have extensions that do that - although they
    may not be useful..."

    Markus: "In terms of appending to this table - there are quite
    a few of us, that would want to add their favorite missing
    features into the table. I would like to announce and open
    period of time where we should invade Dave's work. And add
    anything - it's OK if it is incomplete, we can work to fill it
    in. We haven't talked about prioritization - but that tends to
    be quite messy. Let us wait

    until the table starts to mature then we can determine the best
    way."

    Ivan: "I was wondering - how to start doing that - to help out
    dave. "

    Dave: "it would help to get more things for the list.
    Collecting ideas is the hard part."

    Ivan: "I have specific questions - what I don't see here is
    about control over fonts - in some sense, what alan was
    referring to. Are the features to control fonts and how fonts
    are used - are they already satisfactory for this community?
    ... "Maybe vlad is in position."

    <astearns> need wider implementation of: font-feature-settings,
    subsetting, font loading events...

    <liam> +1 to lack of access to actual stylistic variant fonts

    Dave: "I know that I've run into CSS's classification of font
    properties - does not come close to covering the range of
    features that existing fonts have. One example is Adobe has
    many optical weights (captions, subheads) which CSS has no
    notion of that"
    ... "some font familys have 160 different fonts to the family.
    CSS is not up to that challenge."
    ... "8 or nine wieghts, optical properties,
    so-on-and-so-forth."

    Tzviya: "By linking to the existing modules that are relevant,
    you've pretty much covered all of our priorities?"

    Dave: "yes, it needs to be done at a more gradual level."

    Markus: "We should be noting atomic uses, not just high-level."

    Tzviya: "Homework is to go through the modules and say: 'we
    need this' etc"

    <Zakim> mgylling, you wanted to not forget to mention CJK

    Markus: "One thing we owe it to China/Japan/Korea to do is to
    get something well versed in their typographical needs, to add
    whatever is needed there. Now that we have atenna house in the
    IG, that shouldn't be a problem, but it strikes me that what we
    have in the epub3 CSS profile is a number of vendor-prefix
    properties built on top of CSS context. All of these things are
    used for all epubs in

    those regions, and they represent items that are missing from
    CSS. We can go through that list and pick out features that
    aren't supported as of yet."

    Markus: "Such as vertical centering, Who from antenna house is
    on the call today? "

    Mike Miller: "I'll pass this information on"

    Markus: "We really need a good list of features from a japanese
    point of view."

    Ivan: "A similar question for fonts - Are publishers happy with
    the control of Color? It's improved with HSL and the A
    parameter - which is great compared to old CSS. Maybe alan
    knows - is it possible to express very precise colors?"
    ... "If not, is it something publishers need?"

    tzviya: "anyone familiar with HSLA or RGBA likes it more than
    CMYK

    Ivan: "The question - is what is in CSS satisfactory or not?"

    Tzviya: "I would need to research, but any issues ... i see
    where you're going... It has more to do with screens."

    <Ralph> Nick: Brady

    "Crappy monitors means crappy interpretation"

    Nick: "Screens are limitors - CSS colors are fine."

    Markus: "The group wants to contribute to the group's page.
    Mike is going to get Antenna house to note on the items related
    to japanese. We should reach out to other locals. "
    ... "Tzviya, sounded like you're gearing up to add other
    things."

    Dave: "I'm also wondering if - one possibility - is to keep the
    wiki page in a "listy-texty" format so that we do tables
    elsewhere - on Github or something. Wiki tables - especially
    complicated - are going to be difficult..."

    Ivan: "If you put a table on the same level - it creates a
    table.html..."

    markus: "contributors still use the wiki?"
    ...: "Do we just have suggestions on the wiki? Or everyone
    hooking up to GIThub?"

    DavE: "We'll get more input if we don't require the use of
    github. I offer to anyone, if you want to make changes to a
    github doc - contact me or Ivan."
    ... "use the wiki as the funnel. People who are comfortable
    with the github can use it."
    ... "CSS tends to take a lot of notice on the issues of
    languages, JL req, and various other scripts. In some sense,
    we're not the experts on those languages."

    Nick: "Possibly use GoogleDocs spreadsheets for the giant
    table"

    <astearns> is table sorting a publishing need?

    <clapierre> Google Docs is good although it isn't yet 100%
    accessible

    Ivan: "Probably, we should look at what the other groups are
    doing for the other languages/scripts, which have direct
    channels to the CSS working group. We may not want to duplicate
    work."
    ... "As for googledoc, we may not want to introduce more
    efforts"

    Markus: "One final question - Explain to me how this work
    relates to LatinREQ. And tell me how there will not be
    duplication of intent and LatinREQ."

    <astearns> this is input to LatinReq

    Dave: "IN some cases the motivation for this effort is
    communication with W3C. From the email i was getting from Ivan,
    this is more helping W3C management with Priorities."

    Markus: "Exactly. Just making sure there is no duplication."

    Dave: "I like alan's comments - this could be INPUT to Latin
    REQ. LatinREQ has been agnostic in how these features have been
    implemented. "This is how things are" and less 'CSS can do THIS
    but not THAT. Does LatinREQ goes in a direction where it calls
    out what is possible and suggest new CSS features? We don't go
    into any detail in the table either. "

    Tzviya: "I wanted to add that this is the executive summary.
    LatinREQ is intentionally detailed. 'We know it exists, but it
    doesn't work in the real world' so it becomes more of a call to
    action."

    Dave: "Just don't make us implement this as annotations to
    LatinREQ"

    Markus: "We're at the end. Thank you all, please help the group
    out in filling the WIKI page with missing CSS features. Keep in
    mind that we plan for next week - publication identification
    and resource identification on the web."

Summary of Action Items

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [13]scribe.perl version
     1.140 ([14]CVS log)
     $Date: 2015/06/15 16:13:47 $
      __________________________________________________________

      [13] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [14] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

    [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30
Check for newer version at [15]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
scribe/

      [15] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/???/Thierry/
Succeeded: s/Ivan/Markus/
Succeeded: s/WPIC/WCAG/
Succeeded: s/Prints/Prince/
Succeeded: s/HSBA/HSLA/
Succeeded: s/@@/Brady/
Succeeded: s/alot/a lot/
Found ScribeNick: dauwhe
Found ScribeNick: NickRuffilo
Inferring Scribes: dauwhe, NickRuffilo
Scribes: dauwhe, NickRuffilo
ScribeNicks: dauwhe, NickRuffilo
Default Present: lfowler
Present: lfowler Dave_Cramer mgylling Ivan_Herman astearns RalphSwick To
ru_Kawakubo duga Thierry Michel Tzviya_Siegman Ben_De_Meester

WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Luc_Audrain, Phil_M
adans)
Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the lis
t,
such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ Bill_Kasdorf

Regrets: Luc_Audrain Phil_Madans Bill_Kasdorf Ayla_Stein Heather
Agenda: [16]http://www.w3.org/mid/557B46E6.6060506@gmail.com
Found Date: 15 Jun 2015
Guessing minutes URL: [17]http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-minutes.html
People with action items:

      [16] http://www.w3.org/mid/557B46E6.6060506@gmail.com
      [17] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-minutes.html


    [End of [18]scribe.perl diagnostic output]

      [18] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm




    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

             Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

15 Jun 2015

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://www.w3.org/mid/557B46E6.6060506@gmail.com

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Tzviya Siegman (tzviya), Ralph Swick (ralph), Ivan
           Herman (ivan), Alan Stearns (astearns), Thierry Michel
           (tmichel), Laura Fowler (lfowler), Dave Cramer (dauwhe),
           Ben De Meester (bjdmeest),  Markus Gylling (mgylling),
           Brady Duga (duga), Toru Kawakubo (kwkbtr).

    Regrets
           Luc Audrain, Phil Madans, Bill Kasdorf, Ayla Stein,
           Heather Flanagan

    Chair
           Markus

    Scribe
           dauwhe, NickRuffilo

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Charter renewal update
          2. [6]TPAC
          3. [7]Summear break
          4. [8]CSS needs
      * [9]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 15 June 2015

    <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe

    mgylling: approval of last week's minutes
    ... any comments or objections?
    ... minutes approved.
    ... some administrivia:
    ... update on status of charter renewal

Charter renewal update

    ivan: ten days ago, the charter has been announced unofficially

    <ivan> [10]Unofficail announcement

      [10] 
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2015AprJun/0044.html

    [furious typing]

    scribe: not yet a formal vote; hoping for replies and comments

    <ivan> [11]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html

      [11] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html

    scribe: we have one comment so far, from clapierre
    ... we like that comment
    ... Last Friday, I began to contact people in browser community
    ... to get comments from that corner, no results yet.
    ... important for all of us in member companies to give
    comments
    ... tell us where we're wrong, if things should be different
    ... and positive comments are good, too
    ... I don't know when we go for formal AC vote
    ... we should probably wait for some comments
    ... Does Ralph have anything to add?

    Ralph: Nope.

    mgylling: is the absence of comments a problem?

    ivan: at this stage, no
    ... when we get to the formal vote
    ... then we need 5% of the membership, which is 19 members,
    need to approve
    ... if we don't get the five percent, then we have unpleasant
    discussions with management

    mgylling: for those of us who are not AC reps, we have been
    given work: nudge our AC rep into making comments on the draft
    ... what really matters is being able to rally votes when it
    counts.

    ivan: mid-July, probably

    Ralph: that could be realistic

    mgylling: the time of year when people are hardest to rally

    ivan: we could have a longer voting period

    Thierry: we need comments now; so we can change things
    ... in later stages, we don't want to change

    mgylling: moving on

TPAC

    mgylling: time to register for TPAC
    ... registering early makes w3c staff happy
    ... we do yet know how many IG members will be there

    <clapierre> 99%

    <brady_duga> +1

    brady_duga: I'm coming, but only for this meeting
    ... if it's not going to happen I'd need to know

    ivan: anyone who's sure now should register

    mgylling: anyone sure they won't be going

    tzviya: we did do a survey before we filled out room request
    ... lots of people said they were coming

    ivan: we should set up the F2F wiki page now

    mgylling: who sets up the wiki?

    ivan: any of us

    mgylling: any questions or remarks about tpac?

    <tmichel> I will set the wiki registration page for DPUB

    <NickRuffilo> scribenick: NickRuffilo

    "One thing we forgot to put on is a summer Hiatus or Summer
    Break. We did this last summer - not meeting in July. The
    question we have is whether we would want to do the same thing
    this year?"

Summear break

    nick: "I'll be poking people to get articles to create a
    backlog"

    Dave: "Lets just cancel individual meeting if we get enough
    regrets? It seems like we have important things - charter, epub
    web, etc"

    <Karen_> +1 keep going and cancel ad hoc

    Tzviya: "I think we should keep it going. Unless we get
    regrets."

    "NO SUMMER BREAK FOR YOU!" :)

    Markus: "For next week, we'd like to get going again on topics
    that have been discussed on the list requiring publication
    identification. The problem of resource collection on the web.
    It's Bill K's topic, but he's not here. We'll go into it more
    next week and try to get more continuity. Let's define what is
    actually needed to establish basic identities and unpackaged
    identities. "

    ACTUAL Ivan: "We've had all sorts of discussions via email,
    which is a good starting point."

CSS needs

    Markus: "on to today's main topic: There is a misconception
    floating around. Ivan, can you repeat?"

    <dauwhe> Here's the start of a list:
    [12]https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/CSS_Priorities_for_the_Digi
    tal_Publishing_Community

      [12] 
https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/CSS_Priorities_for_the_Digital_Publishing_Community

    Ivan: "The observation goes that somehow there were people with
    the impression that there are no open issues for CSS features
    needed by this community. To be self-critical, we have not
    publishes very often any documents on this. That is why we
    thought to have this topic - to have a better view of what
    else, beyond pagination, are the things that CSS should
    provide, but does not. We all know

    Pagination is a major issue, but what else is there?"

    Dave: "I would mention that I only started the WIKI page this
    morning, and I included pagination, even though it didn't seem
    necessary. I tried to categorize things logically. Foundations,
    typography,..."
    ... "I'm not quite sure how we'd want to discuss this: One sad
    observation is that many of the things mentioned here have been
    in CSS drafts (and some were removed - due to at risk from no
    implementations)"

    Ivan: "Looking at the list - there is a reference here on GRID.
    The way I understand it is that there are loads of modules in
    CSS3. I don't see from this list a kind of categorization -
    something saying 'this is what we need, but it's not a
    standard' or 'it's not what we need and here's where' or 'this
    is almost what we need but here's what's different'. In terms
    of functionality as well as

    evolution in the working group life. "

    Dave: "Agreed. There are some things that the spec is nice, but
    it hasn't been implemented. Some things that aren't fully there
    yet, some things that haven't been spec'd at all..."

    Ivan: "For each bullet item we need to add the grid of where
    things are."

    Markus: "Your typography section sits well with me because it
    describes things from a publisher's perspective which is very
    important. When you say in pagination 'GCPM' what does that
    mean? Everything in GCPM? If we could have the first column
    similar to what you have in typography, that would be a great
    short-description of what a publisher might need."

    <astearns> sorry - can't seem to get it to work

    Dave: "GCPM handles cross-reference, but it hasn't been
    implemented by the browser."

    Tzviya: "It's great that certain things exists in the spec, but
    if it hasn't been implemented, then it's important to elevate
    it to Houdini or something else to ensure that it is handled."

    Markus: "As a side-note, we need to keep in mind the potential
    accessibility repurcussions. There is a potential accessibility
    hazard there. I believe that WCAG 2 says that we shouldn't be
    using this for things beyond decoration."

    <liam> [wcag restriction on generated content may also come
    from issue of fallback for when there's no CSS]

    Dave: "The main accessability issue is that there are bugs
    where content may not be selectable. That might be something to
    add to this list - is better generated content for
    accessibility/implementation."

    Alan: "Initial intent was decoration, but it's now used for
    content as well, as content is used as a decoration and not
    actual content."
    ... "I agree that we need to have an evalution of all these
    things. Where are they - are they usable? I am a bit too close
    to give things a realistic view. And there are some issues in
    translation - typographical features that work great for fixed
    layout (printing) but when we add them to the web, which is
    reflowable, where quite a lot more needs to be automated by the
    browser. So much is

    <scribe> done by hand. There is something in the CSS-line that
    defines how the boxes get put into the grid - it's something
    publishing does by hand. While the first section of the
    LINEGRID module is good, the 2nd section isn't there yet."
    ...: "We should also be able to access alternate glyphs. I'm
    not sure there is a good way of doing that on the web. "

    Dave: "Prince do have extensions that do that - although they
    may not be useful..."

    Markus: "In terms of appending to this table - there are quite
    a few of us, that would want to add their favorite missing
    features into the table. I would like to announce and open
    period of time where we should invade Dave's work. And add
    anything - it's OK if it is incomplete, we can work to fill it
    in. We haven't talked about prioritization - but that tends to
    be quite messy. Let us wait

    until the table starts to mature then we can determine the best
    way."

    Ivan: "I was wondering - how to start doing that - to help out
    dave. "

    Dave: "it would help to get more things for the list.
    Collecting ideas is the hard part."

    Ivan: "I have specific questions - what I don't see here is
    about control over fonts - in some sense, what alan was
    referring to. Are the features to control fonts and how fonts
    are used - are they already satisfactory for this community?
    ... "Maybe vlad is in position."

    <astearns> need wider implementation of: font-feature-settings,
    subsetting, font loading events...

    <liam> +1 to lack of access to actual stylistic variant fonts

    Dave: "I know that I've run into CSS's classification of font
    properties - does not come close to covering the range of
    features that existing fonts have. One example is Adobe has
    many optical weights (captions, subheads) which CSS has no
    notion of that"
    ... "some font familys have 160 different fonts to the family.
    CSS is not up to that challenge."
    ... "8 or nine wieghts, optical properties,
    so-on-and-so-forth."

    Tzviya: "By linking to the existing modules that are relevant,
    you've pretty much covered all of our priorities?"

    Dave: "yes, it needs to be done at a more gradual level."

    Markus: "We should be noting atomic uses, not just high-level."

    Tzviya: "Homework is to go through the modules and say: 'we
    need this' etc"

    <Zakim> mgylling, you wanted to not forget to mention CJK

    Markus: "One thing we owe it to China/Japan/Korea to do is to
    get something well versed in their typographical needs, to add
    whatever is needed there. Now that we have atenna house in the
    IG, that shouldn't be a problem, but it strikes me that what we
    have in the epub3 CSS profile is a number of vendor-prefix
    properties built on top of CSS context. All of these things are
    used for all epubs in

    those regions, and they represent items that are missing from
    CSS. We can go through that list and pick out features that
    aren't supported as of yet."

    Markus: "Such as vertical centering, Who from antenna house is
    on the call today? "

    Mike Miller: "I'll pass this information on"

    Markus: "We really need a good list of features from a japanese
    point of view."

    Ivan: "A similar question for fonts - Are publishers happy with
    the control of Color? It's improved with HSL and the A
    parameter - which is great compared to old CSS. Maybe alan
    knows - is it possible to express very precise colors?"
    ... "If not, is it something publishers need?"

    tzviya: "anyone familiar with HSLA or RGBA likes it more than
    CMYK

    Ivan: "The question - is what is in CSS satisfactory or not?"

    Tzviya: "I would need to research, but any issues ... i see
    where you're going... It has more to do with screens."

    <Ralph> Nick: Brady

    "Crappy monitors means crappy interpretation"

    Nick: "Screens are limitors - CSS colors are fine."

    Markus: "The group wants to contribute to the group's page.
    Mike is going to get Antenna house to note on the items related
    to japanese. We should reach out to other locals. "
    ... "Tzviya, sounded like you're gearing up to add other
    things."

    Dave: "I'm also wondering if - one possibility - is to keep the
    wiki page in a "listy-texty" format so that we do tables
    elsewhere - on Github or something. Wiki tables - especially
    complicated - are going to be difficult..."

    Ivan: "If you put a table on the same level - it creates a
    table.html..."

    markus: "contributors still use the wiki?"
    ...: "Do we just have suggestions on the wiki? Or everyone
    hooking up to GIThub?"

    DavE: "We'll get more input if we don't require the use of
    github. I offer to anyone, if you want to make changes to a
    github doc - contact me or Ivan."
    ... "use the wiki as the funnel. People who are comfortable
    with the github can use it."
    ... "CSS tends to take a lot of notice on the issues of
    languages, JL req, and various other scripts. In some sense,
    we're not the experts on those languages."

    Nick: "Possibly use GoogleDocs spreadsheets for the giant
    table"

    <astearns> is table sorting a publishing need?

    <clapierre> Google Docs is good although it isn't yet 100%
    accessible

    Ivan: "Probably, we should look at what the other groups are
    doing for the other languages/scripts, which have direct
    channels to the CSS working group. We may not want to duplicate
    work."
    ... "As for googledoc, we may not want to introduce more
    efforts"

    Markus: "One final question - Explain to me how this work
    relates to LatinREQ. And tell me how there will not be
    duplication of intent and LatinREQ."

    <astearns> this is input to LatinReq

    Dave: "IN some cases the motivation for this effort is
    communication with W3C. From the email i was getting from Ivan,
    this is more helping W3C management with Priorities."

    Markus: "Exactly. Just making sure there is no duplication."

    Dave: "I like alan's comments - this could be INPUT to Latin
    REQ. LatinREQ has been agnostic in how these features have been
    implemented. "This is how things are" and less 'CSS can do THIS
    but not THAT. Does LatinREQ goes in a direction where it calls
    out what is possible and suggest new CSS features? We don't go
    into any detail in the table either. "

    Tzviya: "I wanted to add that this is the executive summary.
    LatinREQ is intentionally detailed. 'We know it exists, but it
    doesn't work in the real world' so it becomes more of a call to
    action."

    Dave: "Just don't make us implement this as annotations to
    LatinREQ"

    Markus: "We're at the end. Thank you all, please help the group
    out in filling the WIKI page with missing CSS features. Keep in
    mind that we plan for next week - publication identification
    and resource identification on the web."

Summary of Action Items

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [13]scribe.perl version
     1.140 ([14]CVS log)
     $Date: 2015/06/15 16:13:47 $
      __________________________________________________________

      [13] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [14] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

    [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30
Check for newer version at [15]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
scribe/

      [15] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/???/Thierry/
Succeeded: s/Ivan/Markus/
Succeeded: s/WPIC/WCAG/
Succeeded: s/Prints/Prince/
Succeeded: s/HSBA/HSLA/
Succeeded: s/@@/Brady/
Succeeded: s/alot/a lot/
Found ScribeNick: dauwhe
Found ScribeNick: NickRuffilo
Inferring Scribes: dauwhe, NickRuffilo
Scribes: dauwhe, NickRuffilo
ScribeNicks: dauwhe, NickRuffilo
Default Present: lfowler
Present: lfowler Dave_Cramer mgylling Ivan_Herman astearns RalphSwick To
ru_Kawakubo duga Thierry Michel Tzviya_Siegman Ben_De_Meester

WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Luc_Audrain, Phil_M
adans)
Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the lis
t,
such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ Bill_Kasdorf

Regrets: Luc_Audrain Phil_Madans Bill_Kasdorf Ayla_Stein Heather
Agenda: [16]http://www.w3.org/mid/557B46E6.6060506@gmail.com
Found Date: 15 Jun 2015
Guessing minutes URL: [17]http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-minutes.html
People with action items:

      [16] http://www.w3.org/mid/557B46E6.6060506@gmail.com
      [17] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/15-dpub-minutes.html


    [End of [18]scribe.perl diagnostic output]

      [18] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
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