Re: Footnote discussions

I admit to being curious as to why people think an *Interest* group will be
able to make changes in the HTML spec, but "no one will do [annotation]"
when there's a WG specifically in the digital publishing part of the W3C.

Also, why annotations would not have "flexibility of presentation" or are
somehow "buried"?

Giving authors control, but also "browsers should have a lot of freedom
about how to display it" seems inconsistent... you can't have both the
browser and the author in control.

I remain entirely unconvinced that a free floating "note" is any different
to a comment.

Rob


On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com> wrote:

> And here is the first message he sent to the list.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> Date: Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 2:14 PM
> Subject: Re: Footnote discussions
> To: Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com>
> Cc: Dave Cramer <dauwhe@gmail.com>, Robert Sanderson <azaroth42@gmail.com>,
> Liam R E Quin <liam@w3.org>, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>,
> George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>, "public-digipub-ig@w3.org" <
> public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
>
>
> Hi Folks
>
> I'm joining this discussion a bit late, and am happy to be included. As a
> bit of background. In HTML, accessible footnotes have been possible using
> links for many years... but they have had almost zero uptake. Many of us
> are concerned about it. In Microsoft Word, almost all academic documents
> have proper footnotes. I think in Word its because (1) its easy, (2) it
> looks great and (3) it is a dedicated control. That is the motivation for
> introducing the footnote feature into HTML.
>
> >>>In terms of HTML, I hope it will be sufficient to provide the semantic
> markup (this is a note.  This is a reference to a note).  I don't think it
> is necessary to be overly constraining about how it is rendered.  Different
> media will have different rendering requirements.  Different users will
> have different needs.  I want to right click and be able to say "show me
> the footnote as a popup".  You want it to appear when you hover over the
> reference.  Others will want it in floating content at the side of the
> page.  No reason all of those can't be legitimate.
>
> This is a detail that could be decided down the road. The main thing I
> think now is whether there is momentum on this element. Perhaps browsers
> should have a lot of freedom about how to display it, as long as it is
> available in the DOM or a11y API. Some hover rendering is not available to
> screen readers or sighted keyboard users. The main point of this is to have
> something that will be accessible, will look great, is easy to implement,
> and is dedicated so that devs start using it.
>
> >Is there a significant difference between a footnote and an annotation,
> other than the positioning?  If there is, I'm missing it :)
>
> I don't think dumping fpotnote/endnote in with annotation is going to
> solve the problem we are trying to address. No one will do it... I think
> there is a reason in Word annotations are separate. Annotations are not as
> integral to the content as footnotes, I would say, but even if they were,
> devs won't change their behaviour if it is buried there.
>
> >
>>
>> Wouldn't a hint to the client that a particular area on the page (foot,
>> side, wherever) was reserved for rendering annotations suffice?
>>
>
> >>Given the huge variety of ways to display such information, and the long
> history of some rendering options, I think we need to give authors a fair
> amount of control over presentation. And that control would be equally
> useful for separate annotations. I just hope we don't see book endnotes
> rendered as an infinite scroll!
>
> I don't think annotations is going to solve it for reasons above... people
> need to have flexibility of presentation...
>
> Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
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>
>
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> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:32 PM, Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com> wrote:
>
>> Just looping in David MacDonald, since I referenced his article at the
>> beginning of this whole thing!
>>
>> Hi David!  Do me a favor, read through this and then put in your $0.02
>> (Canadian, of course).
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In terms of HTML, I hope it will be sufficient to provide the semantic
>>> markup (this is a note.  This is a reference to a note).  I don't think it
>>> is necessary to be overly constraining about how it is rendered.  Different
>>> media will have different rendering requirements.  Different users will
>>> have different needs.  I want to right click and be able to say "show me
>>> the footnote as a popup".  You want it to appear when you hover over the
>>> reference.  Others will want it in floating content at the side of the
>>> page.  No reason all of those can't be legitimate.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Dave Cramer <dauwhe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Robert Sanderson <azaroth42@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there a significant difference between a footnote and an
>>>>> annotation, other than the positioning?  If there is, I'm missing it :)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A footnote could be seen as an annotation by the author of their own
>>>> document, but it's also an integral part of the original document in a way
>>>> that feels different than other sorts of annotations. I don't know if that
>>>> matters for the markup, but I think it's a rather significant use case.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Wouldn't a hint to the client that a particular area on the page
>>>>> (foot, side, wherever) was reserved for rendering annotations suffice?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Given the huge variety of ways to display such information, and the
>>>> long history of some rendering options, I think we need to give authors a
>>>> fair amount of control over presentation. And that control would be equally
>>>> useful for separate annotations. I just hope we don't see book endnotes
>>>> rendered as an infinite scroll!
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Shane McCarron
>>> Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Shane McCarron
>> Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.
>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Shane McCarron
> Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.
>



-- 
Rob Sanderson
Information Standards Advocate
Digital Library Systems and Services
Stanford, CA 94305