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RE: Footnote discussions

From: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 16:49:43 -0500
To: Robert Sanderson <azaroth42@gmail.com>, Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com>
CC: "public-digipub-ig@w3.org" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <C274A5503C851E43A8ED400AC86E028504B1C2DAC0@SOM-MB.wiley.com>
I have worked in publishing for 15 years, and I still don’t understand how to mark up a free floating note. Annotation seems to be the best bet.

****************************
Tzviya Siegman * Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead * John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
111 River Street, MS 5-02 * Hoboken, NJ 07030-5774 * 201-748-6884 * tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Robert Sanderson [mailto:azaroth42@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 4:46 PM
To: Shane McCarron
Cc: public-digipub-ig@w3.org
Subject: Re: Footnote discussions


I admit to being curious as to why people think an *Interest* group will be able to make changes in the HTML spec, but "no one will do [annotation]" when there's a WG specifically in the digital publishing part of the W3C.

Also, why annotations would not have "flexibility of presentation" or are somehow "buried"?

Giving authors control, but also "browsers should have a lot of freedom about how to display it" seems inconsistent... you can't have both the browser and the author in control.

I remain entirely unconvinced that a free floating "note" is any different to a comment.

Rob


On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com<mailto:shane@aptest.com>> wrote:
And here is the first message he sent to the list.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca<mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>
Date: Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: Footnote discussions
To: Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com<mailto:shane@aptest.com>>
Cc: Dave Cramer <dauwhe@gmail.com<mailto:dauwhe@gmail.com>>, Robert Sanderson <azaroth42@gmail.com<mailto:azaroth42@gmail.com>>, Liam R E Quin <liam@w3.org<mailto:liam@w3.org>>, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com<mailto:bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>>, George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com<mailto:kerscher@montana.com>>, "public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org<mailto:public-digipub-ig@w3.org>>

Hi Folks
I'm joining this discussion a bit late, and am happy to be included. As a bit of background. In HTML, accessible footnotes have been possible using links for many years... but they have had almost zero uptake. Many of us are concerned about it. In Microsoft Word, almost all academic documents have proper footnotes. I think in Word its because (1) its easy, (2) it looks great and (3) it is a dedicated control. That is the motivation for introducing the footnote feature into HTML.

>>>In terms of HTML, I hope it will be sufficient to provide the semantic markup (this is a note.  This is a reference to a note).  I don't think it is necessary to be overly constraining about how it is rendered.  Different media will have different rendering requirements.  Different users will have different needs.  I want to right click and be able to say "show me the footnote as a popup".  You want it to appear when you hover over the reference.  Others will want it in floating content at the side of the page.  No reason all of those can't be legitimate.
This is a detail that could be decided down the road. The main thing I think now is whether there is momentum on this element. Perhaps browsers should have a lot of freedom about how to display it, as long as it is available in the DOM or a11y API. Some hover rendering is not available to screen readers or sighted keyboard users. The main point of this is to have something that will be accessible, will look great, is easy to implement, and is dedicated so that devs start using it.

>Is there a significant difference between a footnote and an annotation, other than the positioning?  If there is, I'm missing it :)
I don't think dumping fpotnote/endnote in with annotation is going to solve the problem we are trying to address. No one will do it... I think there is a reason in Word annotations are separate. Annotations are not as integral to the content as footnotes, I would say, but even if they were, devs won't change their behaviour if it is buried there.

>
Wouldn't a hint to the client that a particular area on the page (foot, side, wherever) was reserved for rendering annotations suffice?

>>Given the huge variety of ways to display such information, and the long history of some rendering options, I think we need to give authors a fair amount of control over presentation. And that control would be equally useful for separate annotations. I just hope we don't see book endnotes rendered as an infinite scroll!
I don't think annotations is going to solve it for reasons above... people need to have flexibility of presentation...


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On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:32 PM, Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com<mailto:shane@aptest.com>> wrote:
Just looping in David MacDonald, since I referenced his article at the beginning of this whole thing!

Hi David!  Do me a favor, read through this and then put in your $0.02 (Canadian, of course).

On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com<mailto:shane@aptest.com>> wrote:
In terms of HTML, I hope it will be sufficient to provide the semantic markup (this is a note.  This is a reference to a note).  I don't think it is necessary to be overly constraining about how it is rendered.  Different media will have different rendering requirements.  Different users will have different needs.  I want to right click and be able to say "show me the footnote as a popup".  You want it to appear when you hover over the reference.  Others will want it in floating content at the side of the page.  No reason all of those can't be legitimate.

On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Dave Cramer <dauwhe@gmail.com<mailto:dauwhe@gmail.com>> wrote:
On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Robert Sanderson <azaroth42@gmail.com<mailto:azaroth42@gmail.com>> wrote:

Is there a significant difference between a footnote and an annotation, other than the positioning?  If there is, I'm missing it :)

A footnote could be seen as an annotation by the author of their own document, but it's also an integral part of the original document in a way that feels different than other sorts of annotations. I don't know if that matters for the markup, but I think it's a rather significant use case.


Wouldn't a hint to the client that a particular area on the page (foot, side, wherever) was reserved for rendering annotations suffice?

Given the huge variety of ways to display such information, and the long history of some rendering options, I think we need to give authors a fair amount of control over presentation. And that control would be equally useful for separate annotations. I just hope we don't see book endnotes rendered as an infinite scroll!

Dave





--
Shane McCarron
Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.



--
Shane McCarron
Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.




--
Shane McCarron
Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.



--
Rob Sanderson
Information Standards Advocate
Digital Library Systems and Services
Stanford, CA 94305
Received on Monday, 2 February 2015 21:51:06 UTC

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