Re: Footnote discussions

Just to be clear, this IG has been asked to provide input into the changes
to HTML.  The HTML Working Group's Accessibility Task Force has taken on
the task of attempting to define HTML changes to implement (foot)notes and
references thereto.  David MacDonald is championing this in the Task
Force.  Since I am involved in DPub A11Y work, I was asked to loop you all
in and try to get input.  This is a great discussion - let's keep it up!

On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 3:45 PM, Robert Sanderson <azaroth42@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> I admit to being curious as to why people think an *Interest* group will
> be able to make changes in the HTML spec, but "no one will do [annotation]"
> when there's a WG specifically in the digital publishing part of the W3C.
>
> Also, why annotations would not have "flexibility of presentation" or are
> somehow "buried"?
>
> Giving authors control, but also "browsers should have a lot of freedom
> about how to display it" seems inconsistent... you can't have both the
> browser and the author in control.
>
> I remain entirely unconvinced that a free floating "note" is any different
> to a comment.
>
> Rob
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com> wrote:
>
>> And here is the first message he sent to the list.
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
>> Date: Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 2:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: Footnote discussions
>> To: Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com>
>> Cc: Dave Cramer <dauwhe@gmail.com>, Robert Sanderson <azaroth42@gmail.com>,
>> Liam R E Quin <liam@w3.org>, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>,
>> George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>, "public-digipub-ig@w3.org" <
>> public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
>>
>>
>> Hi Folks
>>
>> I'm joining this discussion a bit late, and am happy to be included. As a
>> bit of background. In HTML, accessible footnotes have been possible using
>> links for many years... but they have had almost zero uptake. Many of us
>> are concerned about it. In Microsoft Word, almost all academic documents
>> have proper footnotes. I think in Word its because (1) its easy, (2) it
>> looks great and (3) it is a dedicated control. That is the motivation for
>> introducing the footnote feature into HTML.
>>
>> >>>In terms of HTML, I hope it will be sufficient to provide the semantic
>> markup (this is a note.  This is a reference to a note).  I don't think it
>> is necessary to be overly constraining about how it is rendered.  Different
>> media will have different rendering requirements.  Different users will
>> have different needs.  I want to right click and be able to say "show me
>> the footnote as a popup".  You want it to appear when you hover over the
>> reference.  Others will want it in floating content at the side of the
>> page.  No reason all of those can't be legitimate.
>>
>> This is a detail that could be decided down the road. The main thing I
>> think now is whether there is momentum on this element. Perhaps browsers
>> should have a lot of freedom about how to display it, as long as it is
>> available in the DOM or a11y API. Some hover rendering is not available to
>> screen readers or sighted keyboard users. The main point of this is to have
>> something that will be accessible, will look great, is easy to implement,
>> and is dedicated so that devs start using it.
>>
>> >Is there a significant difference between a footnote and an annotation,
>> other than the positioning?  If there is, I'm missing it :)
>>
>> I don't think dumping fpotnote/endnote in with annotation is going to
>> solve the problem we are trying to address. No one will do it... I think
>> there is a reason in Word annotations are separate. Annotations are not as
>> integral to the content as footnotes, I would say, but even if they were,
>> devs won't change their behaviour if it is buried there.
>>
>> >
>>>
>>> Wouldn't a hint to the client that a particular area on the page (foot,
>>> side, wherever) was reserved for rendering annotations suffice?
>>>
>>
>> >>Given the huge variety of ways to display such information, and the
>> long history of some rendering options, I think we need to give authors a
>> fair amount of control over presentation. And that control would be equally
>> useful for separate annotations. I just hope we don't see book endnotes
>> rendered as an infinite scroll!
>>
>> I don't think annotations is going to solve it for reasons above...
>> people need to have flexibility of presentation...
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> David MacDonald
>>
>>
>>
>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>
>> Tel:  613.235.4902
>>
>> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>
>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>> *            Including those with disabilities*
>>
>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 1:32 PM, Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Just looping in David MacDonald, since I referenced his article at the
>>> beginning of this whole thing!
>>>
>>> Hi David!  Do me a favor, read through this and then put in your $0.02
>>> (Canadian, of course).
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 11:16 AM, Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In terms of HTML, I hope it will be sufficient to provide the semantic
>>>> markup (this is a note.  This is a reference to a note).  I don't think it
>>>> is necessary to be overly constraining about how it is rendered.  Different
>>>> media will have different rendering requirements.  Different users will
>>>> have different needs.  I want to right click and be able to say "show me
>>>> the footnote as a popup".  You want it to appear when you hover over the
>>>> reference.  Others will want it in floating content at the side of the
>>>> page.  No reason all of those can't be legitimate.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 11:05 AM, Dave Cramer <dauwhe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Robert Sanderson <azaroth42@gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a significant difference between a footnote and an
>>>>>> annotation, other than the positioning?  If there is, I'm missing it :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A footnote could be seen as an annotation by the author of their own
>>>>> document, but it's also an integral part of the original document in a way
>>>>> that feels different than other sorts of annotations. I don't know if that
>>>>> matters for the markup, but I think it's a rather significant use case.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wouldn't a hint to the client that a particular area on the page
>>>>>> (foot, side, wherever) was reserved for rendering annotations suffice?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Given the huge variety of ways to display such information, and the
>>>>> long history of some rendering options, I think we need to give authors a
>>>>> fair amount of control over presentation. And that control would be equally
>>>>> useful for separate annotations. I just hope we don't see book endnotes
>>>>> rendered as an infinite scroll!
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Shane McCarron
>>>> Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Shane McCarron
>>> Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Shane McCarron
>> Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Rob Sanderson
> Information Standards Advocate
> Digital Library Systems and Services
> Stanford, CA 94305
>



-- 
Shane McCarron
Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.