Re: Footnote discussions

Ok, that makes sense. I was not aware of that distinction between dpub and
html specs.

In that case, don't we still possible need a reference-to-footnote/endnote
element that doesn't exist for the margin/side notes?
Also, one concern is how to deal with footnotes and the overall text flow.
In fidus writer we adopted a structure like this: "...body text<span
class=footnote>2<span>2<span>The footnote text</span></span></span>. And
more body text..." The first "2" being the footnote number shown as
reference in the body text and the second being the one shown before the
footnote itself. Having footnotes inline like this has certain advantages:
if the body text around it is selected, cut and pasted within
contenteditable, the footnotes move along with it correctly. However, it
also has certain disadvantages: what, for example, if the user wants to
refer to the same footnote from various places in the body text?
On Feb 1, 2015 9:15 PM, "Shane McCarron" <shane@aptest.com> wrote:

> Surely that is still just rendering? I mean, if you are defining dPub
> rules then yes, I would specify it.  But from an HTML perspective I don't
> think it matters.  HTML is about semantics.  I think there are two elements
> needed (maybe 3).  One is something that says "this is a reference to a
> note".  The other(s) say "this is a note with an id of 'x'".  semantically
> this is clear, and assistive technologies would have no problem dealing
> with it.
>
> In behavioral terms, I don't mind if it us up to the user agent.  If I
> activate a link to a note, does it move me to the note?  Does it create a
> modal dialog with the note?  As long as I can get back where I was I am
> happy. I absolutely think I need to activate it though.  I don't want the
> user agent to, for example, magically display the footnote in a tooltip
> when I mouse over the reference.  It might be huge!
>
> Footnote references obviously need to be inline.  And I assume they will
> have default rendering that makes sense.  (e.g., <p>This refefences some
> footnotes <noteref src="#note1" />, <noteref src="#note2" />, <noteref
> src="#note3 /></p> might render as "This references some footnotes [1],
> [2], [3])
>
> Are there more complicated requirements for the base markup beyond this?
>
> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:17 PM, Johannes Wilm <
> johanneswilm@vivliostyle.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey,
>> not sure about what about footnotes should be defined here, but different
>> from sidenotes, which may need to be moved up or down in order not to
>> overlap, in the case of footnotes the difficulty is making sure that the
>> reference to the footnote is on the same page as the footnote itself. In
>> edge cases this ends up being rather tricky (for example: 6 footnotes
>> following oneanother immediately, and the reference being pushed on to the
>> next page when 3 of the footnotes have been inserted). Should the default
>> behavior in all these cases be documented, or is it mainly important to
>> just state that footnotes are a type of element?
>> On Feb 1, 2015 3:43 PM, "George Kerscher" <kerscher@montana.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Great to see footnotes/ endnotes  is of interest to the HTML working
>>> group. From the HTML5 specs we have:
>>>
>>> Details
>>>
>>> In printed documents, the type of tangential content that the aside
>>> element represents is sometimes formatted as a sidebar or annotation or
>>> footnote.
>>>
>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/aside.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However,  there should be three separate elements and having the aside
>>> for asides and notes for footnotes and endnotes seems right. Of course
>>> there is work on annotations now that is also in play.
>>>
>>> David Mcdonalds article sseems close. I would expect that following the
>>> EPUB 3 usage would be good, but elevating note to an element.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> George
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* ahby@aptest.com [mailto:ahby@aptest.com] *On Behalf Of *Shane
>>> McCarron
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 01, 2015 9:45 AM
>>> *To:* Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
>>> *Cc:* public-digipub-ig@w3.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: Footnote discussions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not that I know of.  David MacDonald has done some early work and has a
>>> good article about it at http://davidmacd.com/blog/html51-footnotes.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think our goal in the A11Y Task Force right now is to gather
>>> requirements and even potential solutions, then get to the formal text for
>>> the HTML 5.1 recommendation (and potentially a push of a role or roles /
>>> states / properties into ARIA 1.1).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <
>>> tsiegman@wiley.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Shane,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is there a working definition of the footnote element? I think it would
>>> be helpful to have some preliminary discussion on the list about this. If
>>> there is not a definition, I think we might be able to help with it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Tzviya
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ****************************
>>>
>>> Tzviya Siegman * Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead * John Wiley
>>> & Sons, Inc.
>>>
>>> 111 River Street, MS 5-02 * Hoboken, NJ 07030-5774 * 201-748-6884 *
>>> tsiegman@wiley.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* ahby@aptest.com [mailto:ahby@aptest.com] *On Behalf Of *Shane
>>> McCarron
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 01, 2015 11:06 AM
>>> *To:* public-digipub-ig@w3.org
>>> *Subject:* Footnote discussions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The HTML Accessibility Task Force has asked me to try to get input from
>>> DPub on the introduction of a footnote element (presumably for HTML 5.1).
>>> This would be in the context of things like requirements, default role,
>>> etc.  They are looking for this input in the next two weeks.  Is there a
>>> way we could schedule some time to discuss it?  If, as I assume, that this
>>> group has opinions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Shane McCarron
>>>
>>> Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Shane McCarron
>>>
>>> Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Shane McCarron
> Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.
>