Re: [pagination] Draft pagination document now in GitHub and online

+1

I agree, we shouldn't be dropping languages, though perhaps what Dave meant
was not out-of-scope for the group, but out of scope for his document.
Though, that is still confusing - would it cover Chinese as currently
written in Beijing, but not Chinese as currently written in Taipei? I think
splitting along these arbitrary lines (LTR, top down) is dangerous and we
should try to include all possible living languages in our requirements.
For instance, tweaking the width of a space before a period while ignoring
Tobira [1] seems short-sighted.

[1]
https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/document/d/1V_lzRT2KjpuzA_eH9FdSro9EphRBu37YyZEQS9-32Ko/edit?disco=AAAAAFz9uzk


On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 1:05 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:

>
> On Oct 26, 2013, at 15:17 , "Cramer, Dave" <Dave.Cramer@hbgusa.com> wrote:
>
> > On 10/26/13 6:49 AM, "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Hey Dave,
> >>
> >> just after the first reading, coming from somebody who is not an expert
> >> area... And I appreciate that this is really a first draft, ie, my
> >> comments below may already be part of the plans of the TF.
> >>
> >> - In general, we should be very systematic in each sections on how the
> >> general issues and problems map or do not map to the current HTML+CSS
> >> world. I guess we should have some sort characterization for each issue
> >> specifying:
> >>
> >>  - It can be handled by the current HTML5+CSS specifications (although
> >> implementations may be deficient)
> >>  - It is not in HTML5+CSS, but is properly addressed in an upcoming
> >> module X of CSS 3 or in HTML5.1
> >>  - It is not in HTML5+CSS, it is considered in Spec X or HTML5 or CSS,
> >> but the current approach is deficient for these and these reasons
> >>  - It isn't addressed in the current or planned Open Web Platform
> >> specs, and this and this should be available in some way or other
> >
> > Indeed! I'll work on some standardized way to cover this for each
> section.
> > Information on what languages and contexts each situation applies to
> might
> > be useful as well.
> >
> >>
> >> Also, the problems should be made more explicit than they are now. For
> >> example, I do not understand the issue in 'Issue 1' Section 4.1.
> >>
> >> (Editorially, these are not 'issues' as you used in the current text;
> >> issues in the W3C jargon are more related to the technical issues in the
> >> document itself; we are talking about problems in another document
> >> here...)
> >>
> >> - An outsider's question: are all these notions, requirements, etc,
> >> identical for all writing systems? Or are there different notions,
> >> requirements for Chinese, Japanese, Indian, etc, texts? If so, how can
> we
> >> made sure that all different writing systems are properly covered?
> >
> > This will require discussion, and input from many others. My assumption
> is
> > that Japanese is out of scope, as it is covered in JLREQ. My sense is
> that
> > this document should focus on left-to-right top-to-bottom languages, and
> > that separate documents may be required for some other languages.
> >
> > This will be a good topic for the group!
>
> Yes, and the TPAC is the right place for this. We will have, among our
> observers, people from Japan and China, for example, who can tell us more.
> Maybe Richard can be with us, too, at some point (I cc him explicitly).
>
> I must admit I am uneasy about putting anything out of scope at this
> moment. For example, call me naïve, but my hope is that, aside from
> terminology, Arabic, Hebrew, and other rtl writing systems may not be all
> that different apart from a carefully chosen terminology. Also, JLREQ seems
> to be a purely descriptive document: it *describes* the Japanese
> traditions, but it does not seem to identify any specific HTML/CSS issues
> per se. On the other hand, the CSS documents that is under work try to
> encompass the outcome of JLREQ as well, ie, we should probably try to do
> the same.
>
> (For those in the group who may not know what JLREQ is, here are the
> references:
>
> "Requirements for Japanese Text Layout", W3C Working Group Note, 2012,
> http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> - I certainly would need more examples in the text, mainly because I am
> >> not an expert. But as the audience of this document are people who
> >> develop core Web technologies, I think most of them will have the same
> >> shortcomings as I do:-) (But I presume this is your intention anyway)
> >>
> >> - I also realized that we have a terminology discrepancy between the
> >> publishing terminology and HTML. The HTML spec has the 'header'
> >> element[1] for what I think you call the 'heads'[2]:-( I realize that we
> >> cannot really do anything here, but it is worth calling out to that
> >> discrepancy explicitly...
> >
> > I think that's a significant issue, and I want to cover it more. Even at
> > the most fundamental level, CSS starts with the box model, and publishing
> > traditionally measures everything baseline-to-baseline, or measures the
> > "sink" from the top of the page to some element's baseline.
>
> Ie, we need a "dictionary" for publishers... I wonder whether this should
> not deserve to be a separate document, valid for the whole IG (ie, all task
> forces) at large!
>
> Thanks Dave
>
> Ivan
>
> >
> >>
> >> - I believe you have made small mistake for fig 2 and fig 3: aren't they
> >> in wrong order? They seem to contradict with the caption and the text...
> >
> > I'll take a look. I know the figures need to improve.
> >
> >>
> >> For now...
> >
> > This is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. Thanks very much!
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >>
> >> Ivan
> >>
> >>
> >> [1]
> >>
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-header-elem
> >> ent
> >> [2] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/index.html#heads
> >>
> >
> >
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>
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
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