Re: [pagination] Draft pagination document now in GitHub and online

On Oct 26, 2013, at 15:17 , "Cramer, Dave" <Dave.Cramer@hbgusa.com> wrote:

> On 10/26/13 6:49 AM, "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> Hey Dave,
>> 
>> just after the first reading, coming from somebody who is not an expert
>> area... And I appreciate that this is really a first draft, ie, my
>> comments below may already be part of the plans of the TF.
>> 
>> - In general, we should be very systematic in each sections on how the
>> general issues and problems map or do not map to the current HTML+CSS
>> world. I guess we should have some sort characterization for each issue
>> specifying:
>> 
>>  - It can be handled by the current HTML5+CSS specifications (although
>> implementations may be deficient)
>>  - It is not in HTML5+CSS, but is properly addressed in an upcoming
>> module X of CSS 3 or in HTML5.1
>>  - It is not in HTML5+CSS, it is considered in Spec X or HTML5 or CSS,
>> but the current approach is deficient for these and these reasons
>>  - It isn't addressed in the current or planned Open Web Platform
>> specs, and this and this should be available in some way or other
> 
> Indeed! I'll work on some standardized way to cover this for each section.
> Information on what languages and contexts each situation applies to might
> be useful as well.
> 
>> 
>> Also, the problems should be made more explicit than they are now. For
>> example, I do not understand the issue in 'Issue 1' Section 4.1.
>> 
>> (Editorially, these are not 'issues' as you used in the current text;
>> issues in the W3C jargon are more related to the technical issues in the
>> document itself; we are talking about problems in another document
>> here...)
>> 
>> - An outsider's question: are all these notions, requirements, etc,
>> identical for all writing systems? Or are there different notions,
>> requirements for Chinese, Japanese, Indian, etc, texts? If so, how can we
>> made sure that all different writing systems are properly covered?
> 
> This will require discussion, and input from many others. My assumption is
> that Japanese is out of scope, as it is covered in JLREQ. My sense is that
> this document should focus on left-to-right top-to-bottom languages, and
> that separate documents may be required for some other languages.
> 
> This will be a good topic for the group!

Yes, and the TPAC is the right place for this. We will have, among our observers, people from Japan and China, for example, who can tell us more. Maybe Richard can be with us, too, at some point (I cc him explicitly).

I must admit I am uneasy about putting anything out of scope at this moment. For example, call me naïve, but my hope is that, aside from terminology, Arabic, Hebrew, and other rtl writing systems may not be all that different apart from a carefully chosen terminology. Also, JLREQ seems to be a purely descriptive document: it *describes* the Japanese traditions, but it does not seem to identify any specific HTML/CSS issues per se. On the other hand, the CSS documents that is under work try to encompass the outcome of JLREQ as well, ie, we should probably try to do the same.

(For those in the group who may not know what JLREQ is, here are the references:

"Requirements for Japanese Text Layout", W3C Working Group Note, 2012, http://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/


> 
>> 
>> - I certainly would need more examples in the text, mainly because I am
>> not an expert. But as the audience of this document are people who
>> develop core Web technologies, I think most of them will have the same
>> shortcomings as I do:-) (But I presume this is your intention anyway)
>> 
>> - I also realized that we have a terminology discrepancy between the
>> publishing terminology and HTML. The HTML spec has the 'header'
>> element[1] for what I think you call the 'heads'[2]:-( I realize that we
>> cannot really do anything here, but it is worth calling out to that
>> discrepancy explicitly...
> 
> I think that's a significant issue, and I want to cover it more. Even at
> the most fundamental level, CSS starts with the box model, and publishing
> traditionally measures everything baseline-to-baseline, or measures the
> "sink" from the top of the page to some element's baseline.

Ie, we need a "dictionary" for publishers... I wonder whether this should not deserve to be a separate document, valid for the whole IG (ie, all task forces) at large!

Thanks Dave

Ivan

> 
>> 
>> - I believe you have made small mistake for fig 2 and fig 3: aren't they
>> in wrong order? They seem to contradict with the caption and the text...
> 
> I'll take a look. I know the figures need to improve.
> 
>> 
>> For now...
> 
> This is exactly the kind of feedback I was hoping for. Thanks very much!
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Ivan
>> 
>> 
>> [1]
>> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-header-elem
>> ent
>> [2] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/index.html#heads
>> 
> 
> 
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----
Ivan Herman, W3C 
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