Re: TPAC meeting minutes 1 NOV 2011, annotated with links

[added Vincent and Neil in CC]

Thanks Don for taking the minutes of our CG meeting yesterday.

Let me go further in detail about the discussion we had with Vincent:

Vincent raised the question, why not to transform the HTML rendering 
from discreet layering to a real spatial rendering. We had this 
discussion during Web3D 2009 in Darmstadt, but gave up this idea quickly 
because it seemed to far away from anything doable in mid-term.

But with the transformation of compositing from software to GPU, 
performing a orthogonal projection of the layers in 3D space, the idea 
appears no longer that bizarre.

I don't want to say: Let's force this evolution. It's hard enough for us 
to find (browser vendor) friends with the idea to include a 3D rendering 
engine into the Browser :) But this silent evolution might play into our 
hands as the HTML rendering engine includes more and more 3D techniques.

Just imagine what a real depth system could bring:
- 3D Objects could cast shadows on a web page (or shadows between layers)
- Objects could go through a web page
- A real lighting system also for 2D
- Depth of field

The Tilt project goes a little in this direction. Still discreet 
one-per-object depths, but it's easy to imagine to break that.

Sure, there are many problems to be solved, especially perspective 
projection will not help reading text.

Coming back from these visions, we also had some very concrete 
discussions. Vincent told us about efforts to merge the CSS 3D 
transforms and transformations in SVG which will also influence the used 
Base Types (CSSMatrix, SVGMatrix). Vicent said it would be nice if we 
participate and bring in our knowledge and requirements.

This seems to be a promising start to coordinate our efforts with 
efforts in current W3C WGs.

Best regards,
   Kristian


Am 01.11.2011 23:38, schrieb Don Brutzman:
> added links, now that networking is available
>
> On 11/1/2011 1:52 PM, Don Brutzman wrote:
>> [...]
>> 2.  We asked about the W3C AR community group.  There was no meeting
>> for this group at TPAC, and the mailing list has been silent for
>> about 2 months.  Not sure if they are still active.
>
> http://www.w3.org/community/ar/
>
> no wiki page found
>
>> Discussion question:  shouldn't this group have an AR use case?
>> We all agreed this was valuable to express as part of Declarative 3D.
>> We can distill our use cases from descriptions available on that site,
>
> none found
>
>> from the recent AR Standards Group meeting, from the new ISO SC24
>> working group 9, and from the X3D AR working group.
>
> X3D AR working group:
> http://www.web3d.org/realtime-3d/augmented-reality-ar
>
> ISO JTC 1/SC 24
> http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_technical_committee?commid=45252
> slideset
> http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/%5BKim%5DISO_SC24_Status-Slides.pdf
>
>> Anita gave us a summary report of the just-completed AR Standards Group
>> 2-day meeting, 15 people attended.  We discussed various standards
>> alignment possibilities.
>
> http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/
>
>> 3.  Process suggestion:  declarative 3d community group teleconference
>> efforts probably ought to start using tools available to all W3C
>> working groups:
>> - IRC chat, scribing, and web logging for meeting minutes
>
> Details
> http://www.w3.org/Project/IRC/
>
> irc://irc.w3.org:6665/#declarative3d
> or
> http://irc.w3.org/#declarative3d
>
>> - Action items list and issues list
>>
>> 4.  Discussed agenda for Wednesday afternoon breakout session.  Reviewed
>> and discussed the Declarative 3D Community Group slideset in complete
>> detail.  Kristian and Johannes presented a large and quite-impressive
>> series of demos.
>
> http://www.xml3d.org
>
> http://www.x3dom.org
>
>> Considered current issues and past lessons learned
>> in other W3C standards.
>
> Recommended reading:  Tim Berners-Lee, _Weaving the Web_
> http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/Weaving/Overview.html
>
>> 5.  Vincent provided a short summary of SVG filter effects as a way
>> to predictably offer underlying shader capabilities to SVG authors.
>> We talked at length about the effects work going on in CSS, he gave
>> a demo showing lots of impressive capabilities, and we discussed
>> some CSS/shader technical challenges where a 3D approach can help.
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/filters.html
>
> He also mentioned CSS Regions and CSS Exclusions:
> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-regions
> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-exclusions
>
>> 6.  Neil discussed rationale for a 3D transmission format.  At some
>> point, 3D assets need to go across the network and it might be a
>> valuable addition to ecosystem to have a format for 3D analagous
>> to JPEG for imagery, MP3 for audio, H264/MPEG4 for video, etc.
>> Alternative is that browsers have to do decoding in javascript
>> or content doesn't work.  Seems like an obvious hole.  Could do
>> an inventory of available work, discuss possibilities with MPEG etc.
>> Progressive streaming and compression would be primary benefits.
>>
>> Interesting discussion (once again).
>
> A future teleconference will be setup to discuss further
> for those who are interested.
>
>> ======================================
>> Here are things we didn't discuss yet.
>>
>> 7.  Requests for W3C
>> - (Need to confirm) community group support for IRC chat, trackers
>
> confirmed available, links above
>
>> - Occasional team review, feedback regarding goals and activities
>>
>> 8.  Areas where declarative 3D is very different from other media,
>> languages and web standards.  Rationale: establishing W3C Recommendation
>> for Declarative 3D should add new capabilities to the Web.  Undesired
>> alternative:  W3C members unconvinced that new work adds value.
>>
>> - User-driven navigation in and around 3D models
>> - User-driven interaction:  selection, picking, collision detection
>> - Reuse and composition of individual 3D models into larger worlds
>> - Full integration of 3D models with HTML5 content by Web authors,
>> 	allowing 2-way exchange of events via DOM
>> - Augmented Reality (AR) with user control of 3D display space,
>> 	not simply 2D overlays on top of video feed
>> - Embeddable physics
>> -
>> -
>> - no doubt several others...
>>
>>
>> 9.  We need to characterize shared relationships (+) and distinguishing
>> differences (-) between Declarative 3D goals and other W3C technologies.
>>
>> + integratable with HTML, as external or embedded page object
>> - different than SVG, native 3D representations essential, though many
>> 	lessons of SVG design are relevant
>> - different than canvas: not low-level shader programming
>> + DOM representation central to capture 3D scene graph.  Holding data
>> 	structures in real time is now satisfactory with high-performance
>> 	DOM implementations.
>> + DOM event model is dissimilar to typical event-passing paradigm of
>> 	most 3D scene graphs, but can be aligned
>> + HTML5 interaction model needs to be utilized, e.g. HTML DOM level 2
>> 	mouse events
>> + Significant level of CSS capabilities can be utilized, possibly
>> 	align HTML colors with 3D materials
>> - Need consistent accessibility so that navigation and usability is
>> 	intuitive/predictable (rather than "lost is space")
>>
>> Additional potential relationships with W3C Recommendations:
>> + Most base types supported in XML Schema - add n-tuple arrays?
>> ? Multimedia synchronization - other requirements beyond HTML5?
>> ? XPath and XSLT support needed, possible?
>> ? MathML support for equations?
>> ? SVG, movie, canvas support for creating embedded texture images?
>>
>> One way to get completely confounded would be if we cherry-picked
>> pieces and parts of W3C Recommendations.  Instead we should accept
>> specific requirements and interoperability to align Declarative 3D
>> compatibly with Open Web Platform.
>
> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Open_Web_Platform
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Web_Platform
>
>> 10.  Use cases and requirements.  Needs work.  What's the plan?
>
> http://www.w3.org/community/declarative3d/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements
> http://www.w3.org/community/declarative3d/wiki/Requirement_Building_Blocks
>
> all the best, Don


-- 
________________________________________________________

Kristian Sons
Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz GmbH, DFKI
Agenten und Simulierte Realität
Campus, Geb. D 3 2, Raum 0.77
66123 Saarbrücken, Germany

Phone: +49 681 85775-3833
Phone: +49 681 302-3833
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Dr. Walter Olthoff

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Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313
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Received on Wednesday, 2 November 2011 13:55:04 UTC