Re: TPAC meeting minutes 1 NOV 2011, annotated with links

Hi,

This is exciting news and an intersting direction to explore in more detail.

Am 02.11.2011 14:54, schrieb Kristian Sons:
> Sure, there are many problems to be solved, especially perspective
> projection will not help reading text.

Of course not, but with 3D transformations this problem is already fully 
present. There are a few approaches that help in this regard and 
higher-resolution displays help a lot as well. I am also sure Adobe has 
something to say here :-).

> Coming back from these visions, we also had some very concrete
> discussions. Vincent told us about efforts to merge the CSS 3D
> transforms and transformations in SVG which will also influence the used
> Base Types (CSSMatrix, SVGMatrix). Vicent said it would be nice if we
> participate and bring in our knowledge and requirements.

Its great to hear that there interest to work towards unifying the 
concepts and methods where this makes sense.


Best,

	Philipp

> This seems to be a promising start to coordinate our efforts with
> efforts in current W3C WGs.
>
> Best regards,
> Kristian
>
>
> Am 01.11.2011 23:38, schrieb Don Brutzman:
>> added links, now that networking is available
>>
>> On 11/1/2011 1:52 PM, Don Brutzman wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> 2. We asked about the W3C AR community group. There was no meeting
>>> for this group at TPAC, and the mailing list has been silent for
>>> about 2 months. Not sure if they are still active.
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/community/ar/
>>
>> no wiki page found
>>
>>> Discussion question: shouldn't this group have an AR use case?
>>> We all agreed this was valuable to express as part of Declarative 3D.
>>> We can distill our use cases from descriptions available on that site,
>>
>> none found
>>
>>> from the recent AR Standards Group meeting, from the new ISO SC24
>>> working group 9, and from the X3D AR working group.
>>
>> X3D AR working group:
>> http://www.web3d.org/realtime-3d/augmented-reality-ar
>>
>> ISO JTC 1/SC 24
>> http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_technical_committee?commid=45252
>> slideset
>> http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/%5BKim%5DISO_SC24_Status-Slides.pdf
>>
>>> Anita gave us a summary report of the just-completed AR Standards Group
>>> 2-day meeting, 15 people attended. We discussed various standards
>>> alignment possibilities.
>>
>> http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/
>>
>>> 3. Process suggestion: declarative 3d community group teleconference
>>> efforts probably ought to start using tools available to all W3C
>>> working groups:
>>> - IRC chat, scribing, and web logging for meeting minutes
>>
>> Details
>> http://www.w3.org/Project/IRC/
>>
>> irc://irc.w3.org:6665/#declarative3d
>> or
>> http://irc.w3.org/#declarative3d
>>
>>> - Action items list and issues list
>>>
>>> 4. Discussed agenda for Wednesday afternoon breakout session. Reviewed
>>> and discussed the Declarative 3D Community Group slideset in complete
>>> detail. Kristian and Johannes presented a large and quite-impressive
>>> series of demos.
>>
>> http://www.xml3d.org
>>
>> http://www.x3dom.org
>>
>>> Considered current issues and past lessons learned
>>> in other W3C standards.
>>
>> Recommended reading: Tim Berners-Lee, _Weaving the Web_
>> http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/Weaving/Overview.html
>>
>>> 5. Vincent provided a short summary of SVG filter effects as a way
>>> to predictably offer underlying shader capabilities to SVG authors.
>>> We talked at length about the effects work going on in CSS, he gave
>>> a demo showing lots of impressive capabilities, and we discussed
>>> some CSS/shader technical challenges where a 3D approach can help.
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/filters.html
>>
>> He also mentioned CSS Regions and CSS Exclusions:
>> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-regions
>> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-exclusions
>>
>>> 6. Neil discussed rationale for a 3D transmission format. At some
>>> point, 3D assets need to go across the network and it might be a
>>> valuable addition to ecosystem to have a format for 3D analagous
>>> to JPEG for imagery, MP3 for audio, H264/MPEG4 for video, etc.
>>> Alternative is that browsers have to do decoding in javascript
>>> or content doesn't work. Seems like an obvious hole. Could do
>>> an inventory of available work, discuss possibilities with MPEG etc.
>>> Progressive streaming and compression would be primary benefits.
>>>
>>> Interesting discussion (once again).
>>
>> A future teleconference will be setup to discuss further
>> for those who are interested.
>>
>>> ======================================
>>> Here are things we didn't discuss yet.
>>>
>>> 7. Requests for W3C
>>> - (Need to confirm) community group support for IRC chat, trackers
>>
>> confirmed available, links above
>>
>>> - Occasional team review, feedback regarding goals and activities
>>>
>>> 8. Areas where declarative 3D is very different from other media,
>>> languages and web standards. Rationale: establishing W3C Recommendation
>>> for Declarative 3D should add new capabilities to the Web. Undesired
>>> alternative: W3C members unconvinced that new work adds value.
>>>
>>> - User-driven navigation in and around 3D models
>>> - User-driven interaction: selection, picking, collision detection
>>> - Reuse and composition of individual 3D models into larger worlds
>>> - Full integration of 3D models with HTML5 content by Web authors,
>>> allowing 2-way exchange of events via DOM
>>> - Augmented Reality (AR) with user control of 3D display space,
>>> not simply 2D overlays on top of video feed
>>> - Embeddable physics
>>> -
>>> -
>>> - no doubt several others...
>>>
>>>
>>> 9. We need to characterize shared relationships (+) and distinguishing
>>> differences (-) between Declarative 3D goals and other W3C technologies.
>>>
>>> + integratable with HTML, as external or embedded page object
>>> - different than SVG, native 3D representations essential, though many
>>> lessons of SVG design are relevant
>>> - different than canvas: not low-level shader programming
>>> + DOM representation central to capture 3D scene graph. Holding data
>>> structures in real time is now satisfactory with high-performance
>>> DOM implementations.
>>> + DOM event model is dissimilar to typical event-passing paradigm of
>>> most 3D scene graphs, but can be aligned
>>> + HTML5 interaction model needs to be utilized, e.g. HTML DOM level 2
>>> mouse events
>>> + Significant level of CSS capabilities can be utilized, possibly
>>> align HTML colors with 3D materials
>>> - Need consistent accessibility so that navigation and usability is
>>> intuitive/predictable (rather than "lost is space")
>>>
>>> Additional potential relationships with W3C Recommendations:
>>> + Most base types supported in XML Schema - add n-tuple arrays?
>>> ? Multimedia synchronization - other requirements beyond HTML5?
>>> ? XPath and XSLT support needed, possible?
>>> ? MathML support for equations?
>>> ? SVG, movie, canvas support for creating embedded texture images?
>>>
>>> One way to get completely confounded would be if we cherry-picked
>>> pieces and parts of W3C Recommendations. Instead we should accept
>>> specific requirements and interoperability to align Declarative 3D
>>> compatibly with Open Web Platform.
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Open_Web_Platform
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Web_Platform
>>
>>> 10. Use cases and requirements. Needs work. What's the plan?
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/community/declarative3d/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements
>> http://www.w3.org/community/declarative3d/wiki/Requirement_Building_Blocks
>>
>>
>> all the best, Don
>
>


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