- From: CSS Meeting Bot via GitHub <sysbot+gh@w3.org>
- Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2024 21:56:40 +0000
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The CSS Working Group just discussed `Re-introducing Warichu`. <details><summary>The full IRC log of that discussion</summary> <fantasai> Topic: Re-introducing Warichu<br> <fantasai> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9520<br> <fantasai> slides: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2024Feb/att-0001/Warichu.pdf<br> <fantasai> florian: These are documented in JLREQ etc, but hasn't been discussed in CSSWG for awhile, so this is a refresher<br> <fantasai> florian: warichu are similar to what you might do with footnotes/marginalia/parentheticals<br> <fantasai> florian: typically in Japanese, Chinese<br> <fantasai> florian: It's an East Asian typography feature<br> <fantasai> florian: that is not possible to do in CSS today<br> <fantasai> florian: Is it a new layout mode? is it an addition to existing modes? Either way it's something that can't be done today<br> <fantasai> [slide 3]<br> <fantasai> florian: It's this parenthesized-double-line thing. It's an inline wrapped annotation<br> <fantasai> [slide 4]<br> <fantasai> florian: SOme regular text, then large opening parentheses, then two rows of text; the line length balances; and finally closing parens<br> <fantasai> florian: but how does it work? How do you say that you want 2 lines?<br> <fantasai> bramus: is it always 2?<br> <fantasai> florian: huge majority is 2<br> <fantasai> florian: all known implementations can do only 2, but Adobe Illustrator can do more; InDesign only 2<br> <fantasai> florian: so maybe it can be generalized<br> <fantasai> florian: How do you get the right length of lines?<br> <fantasai> florian: max-content/2 is not necessarily right, depends on line-breaking<br> <fantasai> florian: so max-content/2 + extra until the next line-break<br> <fantasai> florian: Are the parentheses part of the content or part of the style?<br> <fantasai> florian: a fallback for this would be a regular parenthetical, so maybe they're part of the content<br> <fantasai> florian: but an alternative layout would be footnotes, which don't have parentheses<br> <fantasai> florian: in Adobe you put the parenthesis. In MSWord parens are part of the style layer<br> <fantasai> florian: How are they placed? Are they part of the regular line but bigger, or part of the warichu itself.<br> <fantasai> florian: how do you get them to be the right size? It's different from MathML stretchy brackets, because they're regular parens just bigger<br> <fantasai> florian: What happens if the warichu contains something taller than small text?<br> <fantasai> florian: Maybe this is all one combined feature<br> <emeyer> Also seems similar to columns: 2 in RTL direction<br> <fantasai> florian: maybe we have some basic parts<br> <fantasai> florian: that could be used ofr something else<br> <fantasai> florian: Things you need to fuss with include line-height for solid setting, adjustments to vertical-align, trim the parens so they don't take up extra space, etc.<br> <fantasai> [slide 6]<br> <fantasai> florian: The first 6 characters fit in the first line (as 2 lines of 3 chars), and then you continue on the subsequent lines like that<br> <fantasai> (so that you don't read out of order)<br> <fantasai> florian: so now some fragmentation questions as well<br> <fantasai> florian: This isn't new, been in use for centuries, works in InDesign, Illustrator, MS Word, LibreOffice/OpenOffice, TeX/LaTeX, more<br> <fantasai> florian: This is not the most frequent feature of East Asian typography, but it exists and isn't disappearing<br> <fantasai> florian: i18nWG says the frequency isn't often, but some types of content it's used heavily<br> <fantasai> florian: it's a high-density annotation feature, that isn't possible on the Web<br> <fantasai> florian: If we think of it as an inline block, ability to fragment inline blocks across boundaries is kind useful<br> <fantasai> florian: ability to fit exactly N lines and no more seems useful<br> <fantasai> florian: but some hard questions also<br> <fantasai> florian: doesn't seem we're super far off<br> <fantasai> florian: I wanted to bring it up so that as we solve other problems, we can see if we get close enough to solve it with a bit more<br> <astearns> ack dbaron<br> <chrishtr> q+<br> <fantasai> dbaron: Examples, it looks like inline multi-col: what it does seems similar to page-breaking a multi-col, but in an inline setting, and you're doing the columns in the other direction<br> <fantasai> florian: It's adjacent to a lot of the fragmentation things we've been doing<br> <fantasai> florian: how exactly you slice it is novel, but what you do inside the pieces is fairly ordinary<br> <fantasai> florian: so it's the sizing and slicing of the container that's weird<br> <fantasai> fantasai: and the parenthesis<br> <astearns> q+<br> <oriol> q+<br> <fantasai> florian: manually adding the parens and size it large could work, but kinda fiddly, so would be better to automatically size them properly<br> <fantasai> florian: what kind of markup would you have for the content and for the parenthesis<br> <fantasai> bramus: maybe a dedicated HTML feature?<br> <fantasai> bramus: like ruby<br> <fantasai> fantasai: ruby is describable in CSS<br> <astearns> ack chrishtr<br> <fantasai> chrishtr: How is this related to ruby?<br> <fantasai> florian: other than same countries, not<br> <fantasai> chrishtr: How common?<br> <fantasai> florian: Every single Japanese person uses ruby extensively for ~ 10 years of their life (in school) and occasionally afterwards<br> <fantasai> florian: this is not that common, it's used in e.g. dictionaries and encyclopedias<br> <fantasai> florian: product specification catalog<br> <fantasai> florian: other things that need to be dense<br> <dholbert> q+<br> <fantasai> florian: in ordinary text it's not so common<br> <fantasai> florian: There was a theory that maybe the desire for it would go away, but i18nWG says people continue to ask for it<br> <fantasai> chrishtr: what do people do on the Web?<br> <fantasai> florian: I suspect they do regular parentheticals and are disappointed it takes lots of room? or maybe you could use JS...<br> <fantasai> florian: I don't really know<br> <fantasai> iank_: It's a much easier problem if you know you're working in CJK text, rather than all of inline layout<br> <fantasai> florian: if you're asking "what happens if in the middle of the second line there's a float", we'd need an answer, but there's no use case for it os it doesn't really matter what you do in that case<br> <fantasai> astearns: Are the sizes of the content and parentheses ever encoded in the font, are they warichu glyphs?<br> <astearns> ack astearns<br> <fantasai> florian: I don't think it's embedded in any font. Software today has a yes/no checkbox to do it<br> <fantasai> florian: then you pick the font size to make that parenthetical smaller or bigger<br> <astearns> ack oriol<br> <fantasai> florian: and then a drop-down for what kind of parentheses<br> <fantasai> oriol: You said one idea was inline-blocks, but they are atomic and start an independent formatting context<br> <fantasai> oriol: I would probably not use inline block<br> <fantasai> oriol: seems closer to ruby<br> <fantasai> oriol: participates in the parent inline context, needs to line break etc.<br> <astearns> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/k8Zc3Fck/image.png<br> <fantasai> +1<br> <astearns> (Illustrator settings)<br> <fantasai> florian: fact that it's atomic, yeah, would need to fragment, but whether it participates in the parent formatting context less sure<br> <fantasai> iank_: could also have an element that only allows text children<br> <fantasai> florian: wrt number of lines and sizing, I suspect only allowing 2 is much easier than N<br> <astearns> Illustrator allows 2-5 lines, no idea why just those<br> <astearns> ack dholbert<br> <fantasai> dholbert: any scenarios where this might apply recursively?<br> <fantasai> florian: Short answer: I don't think so<br> <fantasai> florian: Long answer: This tends to be used in bible annotations, and religious text tends to have annotations on annotations on annotations, so maybe?<br> <fantasai> dholbert: seems confusing for the reader, but straightforward to define<br> <fantasai> florian: I've never seen it before<br> <fantasai> astearns: You're not asking to work on it now, right? Just to keep in mind if we work on something adjacent.<br> <fantasai> florian: yes<br> </details> -- GitHub Notification of comment by css-meeting-bot Please view or discuss this issue at https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9520#issuecomment-1942702362 using your GitHub account -- Sent via github-notify-ml as configured in https://github.com/w3c/github-notify-ml-config
Received on Tuesday, 13 February 2024 21:56:43 UTC