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Re: [csswg-drafts] [css-page-3] Add orientation descriptor (#4491)

From: CSS Meeting Bot via GitHub <sysbot+gh@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2020 00:42:27 +0000
To: public-css-archive@w3.org
Message-ID: <issue_comment.created-594967467-1583368946-sysbot+gh@w3.org>
The CSS Working Group just discussed `[css-page-3] Add orientation descriptor`, and agreed to the following:

* `RESOLVED: Name this page-orientation with values rotate-left and rotate-right`

<details><summary>The full IRC log of that discussion</summary>
&lt;dael> Topic:  [css-page-3] Add orientation descriptor<br>
&lt;dael> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4491<br>
&lt;dael> chrishtr: Discussed in Dec. Can add to a named page to control rotation in printed output.<br>
&lt;dael> chrishtr: Use cases are to provide orientation for dominant content direction when multi direction. Second it allow dev to provide mixed rotations for UA that don't support other page rotation parts<br>
&lt;dael> chrishtr: I think some consensus use cases make sense.<br>
&lt;dael> chrishtr: Discussion on name<br>
&lt;dael> chrishtr: Check for consensus and then do name<br>
&lt;fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4491#issuecomment-590613842<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: Not clear on the behavior of this. I read TabAtkins comment that makes sense but you said it's not that<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: What happens is in cases where printed output but you control how pages are displaded, aka pdf, adjusts how they're oriented in that display.<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: You can have a whole bunch of portrait and then some are landscape<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: Example in comment. Doc with a table, assign table to landscape with features we have. Printer the landscape is oriented to portrait. When open a PDF you get a bunch of portrait pages and a landscape for the page that has a table which is upright for me on the screen. THat's without this property. Current behavior<br>
&lt;bkardell_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1plEqcBz_6ApmtWYCSRxwOANgF5aGoAL2B0s_9PSQJF0/edit#heading=h.zd7icrtuskjo<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: Prop is to rotate the landscape so it's sidewas and you have to turn your head to read?<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: It's something else<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: What is the default that should happen right now?<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: Ideally you do what you desc. Wide table you force to a named page and say landscape<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: In scenario today where browsers do not have ability to do diff size page sin layout what you instead do is layout everything as portrait. If that means putting out bitmaps or whatever it all comes out as portrait.<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: This feature then says if you're output to a pdf go ahead and rotate. This is a the good feature isn't impl so let's put in this feature for now. It'll be a few years before browser can address properly<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: Okay, I think I understand. So this rotates whole paper including headers<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: Correct.<br>
&lt;bkardell_> q+<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: When browser can control paper orientation is this property<br>
&lt;astearns> ack bkardell_<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: Use case you're bringing up is you pre-rotate and then rotate back to get effect of if we had portrait/landscape<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: Correct<br>
&lt;dael> bkardell_: I shared a google doc from gsuites that talked about uses involving mixed orientations. Is that included here?<br>
&lt;dael> chrishtr: mixed means some landscape and some portrait. Use case from TabAtkins is a browser that doesn't fully support to still be able to output.<br>
&lt;dael> bkardell_: I see that in issue. THanks<br>
&lt;fantasai> s/Use case/So your original comment is correct, and the additional use case/<br>
&lt;fantasai> s/pre-rotate/pre-rotate using writing-mode or transform or something/<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Currently for output formats that can handle layout orientation. When browser can layout as a landscape page owuld this property start applying to on screen?<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: No<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: Not unless display in paged format which generally don't<br>
&lt;dael> chrishtr: If site applies page:landscape and rotate:left you get things that look sideways. Shouldn't do that. SHould only apply rotate for layout of printed mode<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: I'm thinking of paged view on tablet. Currently...if you had this you could layout such that someone can rotate screen and get better view of horz content<br>
&lt;dael> chrishtr: Cases where drown by dev layout but paginated layout?<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Future browser with paginated ux<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: Got it. Depends on if it allows rotation of pages. If wants to be more like printed it would not respect. BUt if it's just layout onto desktop screen it would respect this property and rotate the page for you<br>
&lt;dael> chrishtr: If you consider pdf viewer on tablet you can imagine browser to integrate with pdf viewer to not respect this and expect you to rotate. It's an option impl could choose<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: It's a good point astearns and we should write up that situation<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: I've got people with defined opinions on pdf viewers we can consult<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: Want to make sure it's clear in description where this applies. Paginated viewing and makes sense to author oritentation of page based on user preference not device orientation. Happy to work together to make sure text looks good<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Other questions or opinions on basic design before we do naming?<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Let's talk names<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: My opinion is page-rotate makes sense since talking pagination<br>
&lt;dael> chrishtr: Makes sense to me<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Other opinions?<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: We're not setting anything in stone. I think for now go with page-rotate and with issue discussion<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: page-rotate or page-orient. rotate left and right makes sense<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: I like rotate because it's spinning. I would accept orientation<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: I think that was my opinion until PDF cases where this is a hint about correct orientation but you might not honor that. It's hint about orientation but not a command to rotate. I'm not super clear<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: In order to prevent a verb should it be page-rotation?<br>
&lt;fantasai> s/PDF cases/astearn's examples,/<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Seems like we're at a lull. Should we resolve on name page-rotation?<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: Have rotate property<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: But it's a rotate function. There's a reason for it to be a verb when we normally have adjectives<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: I feel inconsistency is not great<br>
&lt;dael> dholbert: Rotate sounds like an angle rather then keyword<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: Breaking with rotate is good<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: Page-oreitnetation<br>
&lt;dael> chris: People talk about page orientation<br>
&lt;dael> chris: page-orientation rotate-left and rotate-right?<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Makes sense. Rotate seems angle<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: page-orientation with values rotate-left and rotate-right<br>
&lt;dael> dholbert: Don't love rotate-left b/c sounds like clockwise and counter clockwise. Left is direction rather then rotation. It's translation<br>
&lt;dael> chrishtr: left is 90deg rather then rotate<br>
&lt;dael> dholbert: Suggests counterclockwise<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: And easier to spell<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Other concerns?<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Objections?<br>
&lt;dael> RESOLVED: Name this page-orientation with values rotate-left and rotate-right<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Anything else you wanted on this chrishtr ?<br>
&lt;dael> chrishtr: That's it, thank you<br>
</details>


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