[MINUTES] Data Integrity 2025-09-05

W3C Data Integrity Community Group Meeting Summary - 2025/09/05

*Topics Covered:*

   - *W3C Standards Track Poll:* Discussion regarding a community poll to
   prioritize work items for the W3C standards track. The poll includes
   post-quantum crypto suites and BBS (Blind Signature Scheme), with concerns
   raised about the clarity of the poll's description regarding the maturity
   of some specifications. The poll aims to gauge community interest and
   usefulness, not readiness.
   - *BBS Specification Updates:* Progress on the Blind BBS and Pseudonym
   specifications at the CFRG (Crypto Forum Research Group) was reviewed.
   Blind BBS is largely complete, while Pseudonym specifications require
   further review of test vectors and clarity of explanations around
   everlasting unlinkability. The goal is to update the BBS crypto suite to
   reference working group documents. Community review of the updated
   specifications is needed.
   - *Upcoming Presentations:* An upcoming presentation to the CCG (likely
   Cryptography Community Group) on data integrity, emphasizing Data Integrity
   1.0 and Verifiable Data Model 2.0, was discussed. The presentation will
   feature minimal credential applications for illustrative purposes, focusing
   on practical examples easily understandable by web development students. A
   potential virtual presentation at another conference, featuring a more
   cryptography-focused discussion on BBS and its features, was also
   mentioned. The specifics of this second presentation need to be confirmed.
   - *Credential Refresh:* The need for improvements to the credential
   refresh specification was discussed. While the current version works in
   production, improvements are desired before submission to the VCWG
   (Verifiable Credentials Working Group).

*Key Points:*

   - Several specifications (post-quantum crypto suites, credential
   refresh) require further work before they are ready for the W3C standards
   track.
   - The BBS specifications are nearing completion at the CFRG but require
   more community review, particularly regarding the pseudonym test vectors
   and the explanation of everlasting unlinkability.
   - Simple, illustrative examples of credential usage (e.g., small club
   memberships, student IDs) are needed to demonstrate the practical
   application of verifiable credentials.
   - Collaboration and further communication are needed to finalize the
   upcoming presentations.

Text: https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/archives/w3c-ccg-data-integrity-2025-09-05.md

Video:
https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/archives/w3c-ccg-data-integrity-2025-09-05.mp4
*Data Integrity - 2025/09/05 09:57 EDT - Transcript* *Attendees*

Dave Longley, Greg Bernstein, Hiroyuki Sano, Jonathan's Notetaker, Manu
Sporny, Parth Bhatt, Phillip Long
*Transcript*

Manu Sporny: Hey folks, let's go ahead and get started. I'm expecting
probably a pretty light call today. just we don't have a lot of attendance.
but I think Greg, you had two things you wanted to cover. so we can use the
time for the only other thing to mention is that we have a give me one
second. and I lost my window. we have an active poll that's going on right
now. So, the agenda today was largely to just cover any progress that's
been made over the last couple of weeks on the various specifications and
then kind of to determine what work needs to be done for the last two
quarters.

Manu Sporny: Greg, I think you mentioned that there's a upcoming data
integrity presentation happening. There's also one that I think we've been
invited to speak at which Andre and that team has been working on. so I
think that that is kind of our today. Any other updates or changes to the
agenda before we get started? if not, let's go ahead and jump into it. just
a reminder that we have a poll out there for what we should put on the
standards track at W3C. so we're trying to gather responses from the
community. at least two of the work items are what we're incubating in this
group.

Manu Sporny: One of them is the postquantum crypto suite stuff and then the
other stuff is the post sorry the BBS work right although that's already in
the charter we're actively pushing that forward but the only thing really
on the poll to provide an opinion from a data integrity perspective is the
postquantum cryptosweet stuff. So, if you have an opinion on how to
prioritize things, please go to this poll and fill it out. The link is in
the chat channel. go ahead, Phil

Phillip Long: Yeah, you responded to the signal I gave, but one of the
specs were mentioned doesn't have the link and you provided that when you
responded to me directly. I'm wondering because you also noted it needs a
considerably more work than perhaps some of the others whether it's really
appropriate for the poll alto together or…

Phillip Long: whether something needs to be said in the context of the
description of that particular question that this one is a bit aged and
needs to be worked on with a little bit more time and energy. Yeah.
Understood.

Manu Sporny: Yeah. …

Manu Sporny: so if I change the poll, I don't know what's going to happen.
That's the reason I haven't updated it. So, cuz it used to be you change
the poll and it would shut the poll down and get rid of make it so that the
new responses wouldn't line up with the old responses. So, I want to try
and avoid that. so I'm probably not going to update the poll just because
I'm afraid of what's going to happen. I don't want to wipe good data
accidentally. but it's a good catch and good point.
00:05:00

Manu Sporny: I wish I had included that link originally. as far as the work
that needs to be done. we do note that. So we have this incubation thing.
so in this issue is where we're tracking whether or not these are ready for
promotion in quantum safe crypto suites and credential refresher down here
these three are not ready. and we won't move them up until they are ready.
However, given that, it can take up to 6 months to charter and then it'll
take another two years after that. our next shot at getting these into a
charter is going to be in two and a half years from now if we don't get it
in this time around.

Manu Sporny: and so we can list things as tenative deliverables in the
charter and that is what basically every one of these is going to be listed
as a tenative deliverable except for render method and confidence method
which are in the current charter. So every other one is going to go into a
tenative deliverable section and then we're going to try and figure out
what the prior priorities are based on how people have provided feedback.
it would not take a lot of work for a credential refresh to be updated. I
think we need to Dave Longley had proposed kind of a change to the design
that we need to discuss in the incubation and promotion call.

Manu Sporny: but other than that the current one works and it is what is
deployed in production for at least the true age program and it's been
working just fine. but there are some improvements that we can think of
that we might want to do. So we need to schedule some time in the
incubation and promotion call. Right now it's looking like verifiable
issuers and verifiers is going to basically suck up the time in that call
for the foreseeable future. but we might spend one or two calls to try to
get credential refresh into better shape because it is an issue. What we're
seeing in production systems is that everything's been running fine but now
some of these credentials are starting to expire and people are kind of
like what is the wallet supposed to do? I want to auto refresh it. it's
still valid. I want to get a new one but I have to go through this manual
process to get it again.

Manu Sporny: So I think I know that was a lot, of Phil, but I don't know if
that addressed your questions in or…

Phillip Long: No, that's help.

Manu Sporny: Got it.

Phillip Long:

Phillip Long: That's helpful. I'm just advising some institutions about
they've asked me to help them respond to their poll and…

Manu Sporny: Got it.

Phillip Long: I wasn't sure where that sat. So, thank you. That helps.

Manu Sporny: Yeah. Yeah. the need conceptually what's there right now
works, but we want to make it a little better before we pass it on to the
VCWG. okay.

Phillip Long: Got it. Thank you.

Manu Sporny: No problem. yeah. And I guess that poll is intended to ask the
conceptual question, not the concrete question. is the spec ready to go or
not. That's for the incubation and promotion group to decide.

Manu Sporny: Is this feature useful to you? would you find use in it? Is it
useful to your ecosystem? that's the data we're trying to kind of collect
from the community. any other questions I guess on the poll before we move
on? And thank you, Phil, for advising those organizations to fill it out.
the more input the better. let's see what else. I don't think there are any
other community notes. so let's go ahead and jump into our agenda. Greg, I
think you've got some updates on BBS.

Manu Sporny: Let's do those first and then we can talk about the upcoming
presentations.

Greg Bernstein: Yep.

Greg Bernstein: So for the extra features that we know we very much want.
two drafts have been updated at the CFRG. So that's the crypto forum
research group and that is blind BBS and pseudonyms. The blind BBS has been
nicely stable and mostly with explanatory text that I wrote that updated
things. The perverifier linkability also known as pseudonyms. We added in
everlasting privacy.
00:10:00

Greg Bernstein: Okay, this was a feature everlasting unlinkability and u we
had proposed a number of different ways of going about doing this and we
went for a vector of secrets being straightforward and using the current
cryptographic things like that. so where I think we are with this is the
test vectors for the blind BBS which is forms the foundation for been
pretty well checked. the pseudonym test vectors are rather new. So if we
will be trying to get more people to verify those.

Greg Bernstein: I reviewed looked over the crypto suite and I noticed that
at the time we wrote up the crypto suite, neither blind BBS nor the
pseudonym spec were even working group documents. So that's a significant
thing to update because that means from the point of view of rigor and
maturity all the specs referred to by the cryptoeet document will be
working group documents at the ETF IRF over at the crypto forum.

Greg Bernstein: So that is good. I haven't looked into how much updates
things will tell u take what kind of explanatory text we need to go with
the everlasting unlinkability to put in the W3C document. over at IRTF the
CFRG it's pretty tur explaining the privacy unlinkability considerations
and such like that I think we want to do a little bit better in the W3C
document as far as explaining what this means it's the number of colluding

Greg Bernstein: people how big to make that number and I have not yet
verified the very goodlooking numbers that the syllus had out of his rust
implementation. So we're getting in shape. we can point to now working
group documents at the CFRG for everything that we referenced from our BBS
crypto suite and just need to double check that we get more confirmation
about those pseudonym test vectors.

Greg Bernstein: Then I think we can think about updating the BBS crypto
suite and kind of getting everything lined up. Any other notions on that?
Things have not

Manu Sporny: I guess this is all great. Thank you, Greg, for pushing this
giant boulder up the hill. I know it's taking much longer than any of us,
thought in the beginning. just because of, the ITF process is very very
slow. what is now the time to ask for the BBS community to go and take a
look at these specifications? Do you feel like they're in good enough shape
where they could do a substantive review on them?

Greg Bernstein: let me check with my co-author and I think we are getting
close because I also want to apply some pressure because on the core draft
our cryptographic reviewer at the CFRG I'm not a core BBS author they still
haven't gotten back and with about the fixes to their comment.
00:15:00

Greg Bernstein: ments yet. And so, we got to push a little bit.

Manu Sporny: Mhm.

Greg Bernstein: And so, if we get, some I would like, a little bit of
cryptographer looking at the pseudonyms, what we ended up doing, and
saying, "Hey, we like that. that makes Nice and simple, straightforward, no
problem." I mean, I'd like that kind of thing, the feedback. So, I think
we're pretty much there. I should probably check in. I don't want to the
working group chairs over at the CFRG sometimes get a little miffed if we
try and go around them versus if we first ask them. It's like, where's the
status of the review?

Greg Bernstein: we'd like to go into cryptographic review for blind and…

Manu Sporny: All right.

Greg Bernstein: pseudonyms. how can we help move that forward? Kind of do
it that point of view rather than bombard them with external things before
they get a chance to suggest it.

Manu Sporny: All let us know when we can help there.

Manu Sporny: And we do need the rest of the community to take a look at it,
too. can they do So you're going to check with the celest

Greg Bernstein: Yeah. But I mean,…

Greg Bernstein: as far as the people that kind of gave us some advice on
things, I mean, I think it's perfectly I can draft a little email to
Jonathan Catz was the first one said, "Use this thing of vectors and I like
that idea." And so I could just say, "Hey, if you got a little bit of time,
if you could just look at the essence of…

Greg Bernstein: what we're doing here, if you have any questions, we could
have a little session and explain what we did if there's any any issues and
then we're going to ask, we'll try and move this forward at the CFRG." So
that I think that we could go that way.

Manu Sporny: Okay.

Manu Sporny: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I'd say maybe we even put a little more
pressure on the BBS folks to say,…

Manu Sporny: "Hey, we need you to speak up on the list and do a review,
otherwise this isn't going to move forward." …

Greg Bernstein: Okay.

Manu Sporny: so let us know if we need to engage in some way to push that
forward. and then So that's these two items.

Manu Sporny: Anything else that you can think of?

Greg Bernstein: associated with BBS.

Manu Sporny: Yeah. Yeah.

Manu Sporny: with PBS.

Greg Bernstein: There was only one thing that u I was doing some review of
some of the crypto archives and I saw an interesting article about a scheme
for doing anonymous signatures with pseudonyms and they had a different
starting point but it's actually a capab capability that pseudonyms would
have. Meaning an issuer issues BBS signature a credential to a holder with
pseudonym capabilities.

Greg Bernstein: And then with that information, the holder can essentially
sign any data they like under the pseudonym and under the context dependent
pseudonym, heading to the verifier and have it verified against the
issuer's public key. So I mean that's kind of an interesting general
capability that this other paper was bringing up. pseudonyms can do the
same thing just by having the arbitrary data be in what we call the
presentation header.

Greg Bernstein: BBS has a header which is associated data between the
issuer and everybody else and then it has this presentation head header
which is associated data between the holder and the verifier under BBS
pseudonyms anything that goes in there essentially gets signed and…
00:20:00

Greg Bernstein: it's signed under the pseudonym and verif ified against the
public key of the issuer. It's a neat capability.

Manu Sporny: Mhm.

Greg Bernstein: I'm not sure anybody needs it or anything yet. It's just I
saw this paper. They were touting their own system with a little bit
complicated. It wasn't a complete solution. They were trying to, get some
other things, but it's like, we can do that. But that's kind of an aside,
but

Manu Sporny: There's a use case for that, So, the use case for that is you
need to prove that you have a certain credential I'm a citizen of a
particular country.

Greg Bernstein: Mhm.

Manu Sporny: And then potentially using that pseudonym you need to agree to
the fact that there's some kind of legal agreement I promise to use this
resource in doing it in a pseudonmous way there would probably need to be
some kind of issue linkability. if you decided to violate the agreement,
the verifier needs to be able to go back and kind of decloak the pseudonym.

Manu Sporny: But you know that there could be a use case like that. go
ahead Dave.

Dave Longley: There are other use cases in there too like voting.

Dave Longley: You could sign a vote. it gives you a binding that you could
do in other ways too. And so it's just questionable, depending on a given
use case, would you want to do that binding all with one cryptographic
feature or…

Dave Longley: primitive or would you want to use others? So it's
interesting and people might find other uses for

Manu Sporny: Yeah. …

Manu Sporny: Greg, what would we need to modify in the S data integrity
crypto suite or verifiable credentials to achieve that?

Greg Bernstein: We just have to allow concatenation of extra information
with the presentation header.

Greg Bernstein: I can't remember offhand…

Dave Longley: I thought we designed it so that you could include additional
information.

Greg Bernstein: what we use. yeah, I think because on the presentation
header we can include it. it's the header that we use to put in things like
mandatory disclosure, but not the presentation header. you can include
anything you like in there. So, I think we're there.

Dave Longley: Yeah, that's

Greg Bernstein:

Greg Bernstein: I'll double check. I mean, we're going to look at the
document and add in that extra step about everlasting unlinkability And so,
we could point out that nifty feature somewhere

Manu Sporny: Yeah. yeah, I mean it might be worth pointing out and then
we'll want to pick a use case where it is very obviously beneficial. and so
for example, Dave, your voting example might be a good one because it's
really scary, but two, it kind of drives the point home of this is how we
vote today.

Manu Sporny: This is just moving it to an online.

Dave Longley: It doesn't have to be voting for something high stakes, …

Manu Sporny: Yeah, sure.

Dave Longley: express your preferences. What's your favorite flavor of ice
cream? All citizens of some country or whatever.

Manu Sporny: Yeah. Yeah. Or even a local election. I mean, those are a
little less, high stakes than the other ones. let's see. I guess my point
there being I want to make sure it's not a toy example like voting for ice
cream. people are like, "I don't care about that." But if you're like, "No,
you could actually potentially do a local election or a countywide election
or a state election this way." I want some,…

Dave Longley: Yeah, you could vote in W3T, too.

Manu Sporny: there to be some serious seriousness of gravity. Yeah, that's
true. Yep.

Manu Sporny: Okay. anything else, Greg on BBS?

Greg Bernstein: That's where we be now.

Manu Sporny: Thank you again for moving all that stuff forward. Let's, move
on to the next agenda item, which is I think you've got an upcoming
presentation.

Manu Sporny: Who's it Is it to CCG or is this the one in Italy? Okay. Mhm.

Greg Bernstein: This is ECG.

Greg Bernstein: This was an invited talk, tutorialish emphasizing data
integrity 1.0 which verified data model 2.0, data integrity 1.0. The part
that I know very well is what crypto suite should you use for which reason
that part…
00:25:00

Manu Sporny: Mhm. Yep.

Greg Bernstein: but what I was going into my teaching mode I wanted to see
small applications of credentials such that could be developed by a third
semester web development student. So when I usually teach web development,
I would have them start with trying to make it individual in this age of I
haven't had to deal with the AI stuff, but I would have everybody come up
with a community club, fictitious or real, it didn't matter.

Greg Bernstein: We'd go from static web page to full-on backend front end
with react or view with the back with server processing with different
permissions and for the officers and things like that. Now, I was trying to
put something in that vein for when do you add credentials. And so, let's
say it was like a school hiking club and you're concerned with things like
do people know some basic knowledge about hiking safety? have they gone on
certain lengths of hikes and things like that?

Greg Bernstein: And there's different events that you'll sponsor a hike and
such like that But if it's one club, you can just look up your member
roster by whoever and look at that. if you have multiple clubs in different
locations and maybe they'd like to cooperate, right? You don't want people
staring at your whole club membership thing. That's a privacy thing. What
you might want to do then is come up with credentials and whether or not a
different club accepts your club's credential can be based on experience
staring at your club's website and things like that. And so this was kind
of like my idea because I wanted a minimal credential app. why would we
bother using a credential?

Greg Bernstein: It's hard to justify when you just have a single club, but
as soon as you want them to interact and you want to minimize data
exposure. So I wanted to go through design of a ial the context I mean very
simp minimalistic and then go through selection crypto suites and going
from how you specify the proof options to and the credential and how you
get the fi final credential how it gets verified and things like that.

Greg Bernstein: And so I usually will start these things kind of as notes
in a written tutorial then I'll turn it into a set of slides and I push
this to GitHub initially because I always like feedback particularly from
the experts on JSONLD and things like that say there's a simpler way to
explain night or something because when I was doing all my test vector
stuff work and even my server work, I had the advantage that I could just
ping people that really knew JSONLDLD and all this stuff, right? I could
ping Dave and said, "Dave, I'm having trouble. It's got nothing to do with
the cryptography,"

Greg Bernstein: And so I wanted to see if I could share some of that stuff
even though that's not my expertise, but I wanted to just so the idea was
because everybody hears about driver's licenses and these big apps, but I
was thinking about this, what's the smallest app, not open badges, but
it'll look like open badges or CLR, but it's just a simple list of this
guy's done this three- mile hike, this guy's done this seven mile hike,
this one had so much vertical, this guy understands about hyper and
hypothermia and so blah blah blah those kind of things like a club would
have. So that was the idea

Manu Sporny: Yeah, I think that's a good idea. I mean, some other ideas
are, whether or not someone's trained in first aid, like that comes in a
variety of different settings, right? I mean, the other things could be
like whether or not someone is a part of any club at a university. So if
you look at hiking or outdoors or camping, a lot of, state forests and
national forests will give discounts to certain groups of people, but they
clearly should not have access to everybody's, roster. And so, how do you
do it today? You show a piece of paper, which is fine, but also can be very
easily, counterfeited and you can't really use that online.
00:30:00

Manu Sporny: So, if you, for example, get a hiking trail pass online,…

Manu Sporny: you can't get the discount …

Greg Bernstein: This is Yeah,…

Manu Sporny: unless the site's we trust This is, honor policy type type
thing. So, that might be a couple of, examples just simple kind of local
things. I think it might also help to think about this stuff, once it gets
to scale, once it gets to as easy as it used to be really difficult to set
up your own website, get your own domain, put the site together. Now you
can just basically go anywhere and click a button and you've got a site for
25 bucks or something. So, it might be helpful to think toward what happens
when it's as easy as that.

Manu Sporny: For Mhm.

Greg Bernstein: Because for example maybe when you do that and it'll set up
your key pairs for you and it'll lock down the key file and…

Manu Sporny: Mhm. Yep.

Greg Bernstein: I think it's not just these huge cases we can make it work
in these smaller cases…

Greg Bernstein: which also means we can illustrate the process. I mean
designing a credential is a lot of work and…

Manu Sporny: Mhm. Okay.

Greg Bernstein: right figuring out what should be in it and such like that
to do an simplistic example and doesn't have to be because it's right and
so I mean I was looking at the CLR and I go god that's so long and…

Greg Bernstein: complicated to read and even open badges and it's like the
language and…

Manu Sporny: Mhm. Yeah.

Greg Bernstein: it's like everybody now works with the data 2.0 or at least
when I just looked the other day it seemed like the latest open badges the
latest CLR did but it's like guys you can just define your own if you want
it's your club you can specify your credential any way you want and use all
these mechanisms so

Manu Sporny: I mean, and the other thing might just be student ID is a
pretty simple thing to model.

Manu Sporny: I mean, you can get your mind around it. usually it's like
there's a picture of the person and their name and their ID number and
that's that and maybe classification, student, faculty, that sort of thing.
But there's not much more that goes on like a student ID.

Manu Sporny: And that's the thing that you show for, discounts at local
stores and things like that, right? Yeah.

Greg Bernstein: Yeah, I wanted the person doing the thing the stuff to be
the issuer.

Greg Bernstein: I'm not going to be the university, but I can make up my
own wind surf club at wherever.

Manu Sporny: Mhm.

Greg Bernstein: So, I was going to do it from the point of view you are the
issuer. You're going to define this stuff. you are not the university.
That's a different level, right? Besides that,…

Manu Sporny: Yep.

Greg Bernstein: this way it keeps it away from anybody's commercial
business.

Manu Sporny: Mhm. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Greg Bernstein: Okay, that so I put it to GitHub. I'm putting down notes
and at a certain point I would get it to the point where it's like, can you
do a just quick review? It's like no, to see if I'm not, that I'm saying
things about JSONLDLD credentials because I think the other day we had a
not on this forum, but somebody brought up the point with digital
credentials, you can have multiples from the same organization and such
like that. You can split them up differently.

Greg Bernstein: You don't have to shove it all into one credential. even
before going to selective disclosure. So there are some interesting items
like that.

Manu Sporny: Yep.

Greg Bernstein: So that's okay. Thanks
00:35:00

Manu Sporny: I mean that Sounds like a good approach and I think it would
be received well in the CCG. I guess just let us know how we can help. Yep.
the other item and the last item is I don't know Greg if Benjamin has
gotten in touch with you yet, but Andre and Yarm and the are doing some
kind of conference thing. They've got a two-hour block to present and
they've asked us if we'd be interested in presenting virtually. They're
also having Obby and…

Manu Sporny: Matteo present there.

Manu Sporny: So, I think it's much more cryptography focused. I don't know
if you were interested in, presenting there on any of the stuff you're
working on with BBS or anything of that nature.

Greg Bernstein: Yeah. …

Manu Sporny: They said it's open like you,…

Greg Bernstein: we …

Manu Sporny: they're like, you can pick whatever you want to present on.
and so

Greg Bernstein: I would love to once again hammer that, we are not as
dedicated to BBS as we are to the feature set of BBS,…

Greg Bernstein: and what that is and why. I mean it took a while for us to
BBS is great but unless we have pseudonyms it's not going to work right and…

Manu Sporny: Mhm.

Manu Sporny: Mhm. Yep.

Greg Bernstein: so any chance we get where we got some bright
cryptographers that we can remind them of the app these privacy preserving
applications and…

Greg Bernstein: the features we want is good I have not seen anything about
scheduling or…

Manu Sporny: Okay.

Greg Bernstein: anything that way.

Manu Sporny: So, let's try to make sure that Benjamin gets in touch with
you to see if we can set something up there.

Greg Bernstein: Nor have I gotten any response from Abby and…

Manu Sporny: Yeah.

Greg Bernstein: Matteo. We've followed up with them with an email to do
kind of next step stuff, but everybody's getting back from school or…

Manu Sporny: We have Yeah. let's see…

Greg Bernstein:

Greg Bernstein: getting back to school. Okay.

Manu Sporny: if we can ping them again because I mean, there was a lot of
excitement there and then it just kind of fizzled off. because they were on
vacation. let's see if we can get that started again and maybe ping them
again by email. which that reminds me I still haven't contacted the ski
sign folks because they did talk about some kind of postquantum unlinkable
thing in their suite. So, it'd be interesting to chat with them about that.
I think that's it for our agenda today. Was there anything else that we
wanted to cover? All right. If not, have a wonderful weekend. we will
probably not meet next week unless, we've seen some significant progress on
specs or…

Greg Bernstein: All right.

Manu Sporny: anything like that.

Manu Sporny: but I'll try to send an agenda out or cancel by early next
week. All right, that's it for the call this week. thanks all. Have a good
one. Take care. Bye.
Meeting ended after 00:38:19 👋

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