- From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
- Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2025 14:44:54 +0000
- To: public-credentials@w3.org
Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week! The transcript for the call is now available here: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2025-02-04/ Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes. Audio of the meeting is available at the following location: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2025-02-04/audio.ogg A video recording is also available at: https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/archives/w3c-ccg-weekly-2025-02-04.mp4 ---------------------------------------------------------------- W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference Transcript for 2025-02-04 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/advanced_search?hdr-1-name=subject&hdr-1-query=%5BAGENDA&period_month=Feb&period_year=2025&index-grp=Public__FULL&index-type=t&type-index=public-credentials&resultsperpage=20&sortby=date Topics: 1. <Ayra (fka Global Acceptance Network)> Organizer: Harrison Tang, Kimberly Linson, Will Abramson Scribe: Our Robot Overlords Present: Harrison Tang, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) (OpenLinkSw.com), sirBrandon, julien fraichot, Laure Haak, Kaliya Young, Drummond Reed, Darrell O'Donnell, Kalin, Benjamin Young, Mahmoud Alkhraishi, Rashmi Siravara, James Chartrand, andor kesselman, Erica Connell, Joe Andrieu, Will Abramson, Tom S, Jennie M, Greg Bernstein, John Henderson, Nis Jespersen , Chandi Cumaranatunge, Robert Long, Dmitri Zagidulin, Kayode Ezike Our Robot Overlords are scribing. Harrison_Tang: Hi everyone uh welcome to this week's w3c meeting uh today we're very excited to have Drummond and also Daryl here from era uh to talk about uh era or formerly known as a global acceptance Network um but before that I just want to uh quickly go through some administrative stuff so first of all I just want to make sure that uh you know uh we hold respectful and uh constructive conversations so a quick reminder on the callbacks and the professional conduct. <drummond> Links we'll be sharing today: https://ayra.forum/ Harrison_Tang: Write a quick note on the intellectual property anyone can participate in these calls however all substantive contributions to any ccg work items must be member of the ccg with full IP agreements signed uh so if you have any questions in regards to getting a w3c account or the w3c community contributor license agreement uh please feel free to reach out to me or any of the cultures. Drummond Reed: https://ayra.forum/whitepapers/ Harrison_Tang: All right uh a quick uh notes about the call so uh these calls are automatically uh recorded and transcribed uh you can kind of see the transcriber working here um and we will publish the meeting minutes uh the video and audio recording uh in the next uh day or 2. Harrison_Tang: Uh we use GG chat to kill the speakers do you need to call so you can just type in Q Plus to add yourself to the queue or cue minus uh to remove and you can type in a queue question mark uh to see who is in the queue. Harrison_Tang: Right just want to take a quick moment for the introductions and reintroductions so if you are new to the community or you haven't been active and want to re-engage actually just uh feel free to unmute and introduce yourself a little bit. Harrison_Tang: All right we do this uh every meeting so uh when you feel more Brave uh feel free to do that anytime. Harrison_Tang: all right. Harrison_Tang: Uh announcements and reminders uh just want to take a quick moment if anyone has some new events that they want to share or new developments. Harrison_Tang: All right any updates. Harrison_Tang: Out the work items. Harrison_Tang: We will hold the work item updates and open re open discussion and review on March 11th. Harrison_Tang: Have more information than before then any updates or questions on the work items. Harrison_Tang: All right last calls for introductions announcements reminders and work items. Kaliya Young: There are many things um there's a did unconference Africa coming up um February 18th to 20th I think um. Kaliya Young: Then we have the digital identity and Conference Europe. Kaliya Young: Um which is March. Kaliya Young: 4Th and 5th in Zurich. Kaliya Young: Um We Made It 2 days so that folks can fly in the morning of the fourth and fly out the evening of the 5th so you only have to spend 1 Night opening Circle won't start till 10:00 a.m.. Kaliya Young: On the. Kaliya Young: We have iiw 40 coming up April 4th to not fourth April 8th to 10th in Mountain View California. Kaliya Young: Our big decision is when to have the cake we think it's going to be after lunch on Wednesday um. Kaliya Young: And then I'll also add a 2 more things um Johannes erns and I are doing a virtual unconference The fetty Forum focused on decentralized Social Web so if you know people were if you're working on decentralized Social Web. Kaliya Young: Technologies of all kinds um. Kaliya Young: Sky Mastadon etc etc. Kaliya Young: Uh please join us it's virtual. Kaliya Young: And then I'll just share 1 other thing um if you're in um Asia and you're interested in coming to the mosip connect conference that's the modular open source identity platform. Kaliya Young: Um reach out to me it's sort of um. Kaliya Young: It's it's sort of like knock on the door invite so if you feel like you would like to be there I'm happy to work to get you an invitation. Kaliya Young: Quote links to all those in the chat and most of connect is. Kaliya Young: To 13 in Manila. Kaliya Young: That's all thanks. Harrison_Tang: Any other uh announced announcements or reminders. Harrison_Tang: And clear do you have more comments. Harrison_Tang: All right any other uh announcements reminders. Kaliya Young: DID:UnConf Africa - https://didunconf.africa/ Harrison_Tang: So next week uh we'll have uh our former culture micro Rock uh to talk about the verifiable traceability and AI in Supply Chain management and the week after that we'll have monu here to talk about verifiable credentials for First Responders and then uh actually a month from now. Harrison_Tang: we have. <kaliya_identity_woman> DICE Ecosystems - https://lu.ma/DICEecosystems Harrison_Tang: Same goal and team uh to talk about digital credentials API uh basically allowing uh the service providers or relying parties to actually access the the digital identities in the Google Wallet and apple wallet. Harrison_Tang: All right I'll send out the media agendas uh as always uh you know the week before. <kaliya_identity_woman> Internet Identity Workshop 40 - https://lu.ma/DICEecosystems <kaliya_identity_woman> actually this link - https://internetidentityworkshop.com/ Harrison_Tang: All right let's get to the main agenda uh today very excited to have Drummond uh and actually Daryl here to talk about Ira uh or formerly known as Gan Global acceptance network uh trust framework I think most recently we have a very long Thread about uh proving or knowing whether issuers who they who they claim they are and also we have a work item around uh verifiable uh verifiers and issuers list uh so it's all about talking about um how do you know uh the issuers and verifiers are trustworthy so I think Drummond is probably 1 of the best person to answer this question so if we look forward to uh. Harrison_Tang: So drama uh the full shorts. <kaliya_identity_woman> Virtual FediForum April 1-2 all things decentralized social web - https://fediforum.org/ Drummond Reed: I think so much Harrison and and super glad to be here um uh we've actually got several of us from the IRA team here um Daryl O'Donnell is the executive director of the iris Association as you said Formerly Known uh and Daryl will explain a little bit why um the the evolution from Global acceptance Network um uh and the early work we did put in place to Ira Association which is now uh uh chartered Swiss Association um and we also have uh and or Castleman here from the IR Tech Team uh I'm gonna actually turn it over to Daryl to do the opening introductions and see um uh does it uh as his day job right now um so he'll start out and uh and then we'll you know dive deeper into it explain how it works and and we can go as deep as folks want to go uh on the uh technical white paper we have out so Daryl over to you. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Thanks Roman um I'm going to try and share my screen I've I've noticed people have been typing in like present plus I'm not sure if I need to do that but we shall see. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): All right folks seeing my screen now. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): All right all right I'm gonna I'm gonna burn through this relatively quickly um because I really want to get to the discussion uh session but I wanted to just ground things a little bit by by providing you know what is IRA and why are we here. <kaliya_identity_woman> MOSIP Connect - https://connect.mosip.io/ Manila Philippines - reach out to me if you are interested in attending kaliya@identitywoman.net Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): 1 of the reasons that Gann Global acceptance network is what it was named back early last year it was a temporary name was always a temporary name but it actually started to get some legs in the market so we actually moved ahead with our our rebranding but the reason behind starting with Gan and creating IRA. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): is that. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): That we all know that you know trust is absolutely plummeting especially in our digital world we have seen massive investment that's not reversing the trend it's just getting worse um in business risk and compliance costs continue to rise and and AI is like pouring gas on the fire it has just accelerating how fast um trust levels are are beginning to you know to decay. Topic: <Ayra (fka Global Acceptance Network)> Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): What we recognize anyone in this space the reason you know we meet in spaces like this at w3c and others is that we know we can't solve this problem Alone um the internet was not built by 1 company 1 organization it has been built by a multiple parties. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): and we. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Know that if we need to work. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): um with our. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Partners with our peers our competitors as well as our customers to figure out what are the next steps. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): So 1 of the things we recognized with with Ira with Gan is that we know that building and sustaining trust is it's fundamental to a good business. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): It's also a multi-stakeholder problem. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): So we knew we needed a forum a place to to have a neutral place to meet to sort of build the network effects that helped to restore and build digital Trust. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Is Ira so Ira was created out of Gan that was rebranded just uh 2 and a half weeks ago um we we announced that in Zurich in mid January um and we've now been working towards so Ira is a global acceptance Network it is not Gan anymore but people can certainly refer to us as that we're finding the name is actually working quite well but what we are is a community of folks that are the Trailblazers in first movers the ones who when they see opportunity that needs exploring you know immediately start exploring and start to see how can I use this how can I actually get ahead of my competitors how can I help my customers more in this space. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): This is a quick uh shot of who our Founders and members are just want to give a shout out as well to um the ambassadors that we have which is part of our governance construct where we make sure that we're balancing corporate interests with civil society with individuals um who can offset the natural tendency to peer to purely pursue commercial means Ira is intended to be self-sustaining over time it does have to operate in a commercial way but we want to make sure that we're doing the right thing for everybody and we have those ambassadors are there to balance that out. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Quickly just an idea of what's behind IRA and 1 of the goals we have with Ira is to have a trust Mark that you know 3 to 5 years from now when you see it you'll think about certain things because you'll know certain things are true at that point. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Goal with individuals is you know when I see the IRA trust Mark is that I'll know that the people and organizations I'm working with are actually who they say they are. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): That when I'm dealing with organizations and and for that matter people in the ira trust Network that the system will just work that the wires I don't have to worry about changing apis or which credential format it's just going to work. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): But also when I share information that the rules the business rules the governance rules will be respected and I won't have to worry about people you know selling my data onwards that type of thing. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): What we also want to get to the point when we don't see the IRA trust market and we're doing 1 of these private things 1 of these sharing things that we kind of back up and and and wonder why am I doing this does this mean I'm sharing information with someone who is I shouldn't trust that may not be true we want to get to the point where when I don't see the trust Mark I start to wonder. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): On a business level we want to make sure that businesses know that it can conduct their business whether that's for profit or non-profit knowing that the parties involved are authentic that they actually are who they say they are. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): That they're following the business in a governance rules that I expect. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): and also. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): I build out my business I don't have to go and build the networks I need I can tap into them many ecosystems already exists I think in the SSI World the whole credential world we thought you know 5 years ago that you know supply chain was an ecosystem sure it is but it's actually comprised of hundreds or thousands of small. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Ecosystems it's how do I connect to those that becomes really really hard if I'm doing it by myself on my own but if they already exist I can just tap into them and and add value where I can or buy things that add value to me. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): And our government bases we want to make sure governments understand that we're not here to usurp government we're here to support their authorities and policies make sure that they understand how to how to their systems fit in how do they how does Ira enable growth inside their country as their country and and citizens and businesses work both inside as well as with other countries that they know that their their authorities and policies are respected. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): That their citizens are being treated well and that the businesses in their jurisdiction are playing on a Level Playing Field. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Quick little diagram here and I'm going to jump on quickly and then hand over to Drummond but the goal behind the iris Association is to govern. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): The IRA trust Network which really is an ecosystem of ecosystems if we Ira are not connecting many ecosystems. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Not about a single ecosystem if there's only 1 ecosystem you connect to Ira we don't have a reason to exist we want to make sure that as we connect that these are truly interoperable. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): we want. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Have many many ecosystems for starting with just a few right now but the whole goal is to make sure that we can scale to many hundreds thousands or more of independent and Sovereign ecosystems. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Um if you heard the announcements we have a new domain as I mentioned you know Gan everything will forward over if you go to gananda Foundation it just lands now at Ira forum. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Our new email socials you'll find us on all of these things uh LinkedIn X Blue Sky YouTube. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): And Drummond is going to dive into I want to do a quick intro here. Drummond Reed: https://ayra.forum/whitepapers/ Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): But we 1 of the things we did on our new website is provided a much more succinct and simple message what we also provided for papers um these are intended to drive depending on who you are different levels of Interest so the introduction I really is about 4 to 5 pages of texts um it is there to kind of give you an idea of what is it what does it mean if I don't have a clue about it. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): The ecosystem in ecosystems model is just shy 20 Pages um it is really telling the story that many have already heard and but in a particular how does Ira help weigh about how do we connect ecosystems of ecosystems networks of networks what's the model there. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): The next 1 is about 20 Pages 20 21 Pages the special Network effects this is I would say um this is 1 of Drummond is the primary author of 1 of all of these uh the tech paper is Dave and Dave Andor Andor and Dave worked on that 1 mostly but this paper on special Network effects if you are. <drummond> That's Andor Kesselman and Dave Poltorak Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): If you've been involved in the verifiable credentials space which this group has been this is a particular importance this paper here um to the point that I've actually said it could be. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): 1 of Drummond's best pieces of work. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Once you've gone through that we have a much heavier technical white paper we're usually speaks to the technical glue that we provide of how do we connect the ecosystems. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): how do we know. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Who is in the ecosystems. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Are we connecting how are we proving the connections going to work that the wires are going to connect. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): that P. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Papers about I think 50 pages or so a lot of uh good great detail in there but you'll see how things are glued together. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): That is it from me as far as intro I'm going to hand back over to Drummond and Andor uh Drummond. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): And if anybody has any questions happy to take them. Drummond Reed: So yeah let's let's actually stop any anyone who has any questions right now uh for Daryl I know Daryl if you're on the chat some of them might come in there um let's just pause for a second to see if anyone has any questions about the overall the the big picture before we dive down uh any further. <phillip_long> You've mentioned a trust mark - you'll elaborate on that? Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): I think I see Harrison or or you're asking if anyone has any questions okay. Harrison_Tang: Sorry uh yeah there's a question from Phil about you mentioned trust Mark can you elaborate on that. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Yeah so the the logo you were seeing their um it forms the graphical basis for for the trust mark But the goal down the road is to establish a trust Mark and certification program where. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): We will know that systems are Ira ready. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): When they can pass both the conformance test Suite which is more on the technical side. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): but all. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Also that they have agreed to the very light terms that create the business and governance portion of the IRA trust Network. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): so this. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Is a will become a formal trust Mark certification. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): We are in time we're not doing it today but with soon working to find Labs that will actually do we're not going to be a certification body we're going to set the conditions that say here are the specifications for the certification of the trust mark That's the only spec work we're working on folks we are working with folks to do specs and standards. <phillip_long> That's what I was interested in - what's behind the trust mark required to 'earn it'. Thanks! Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): But that's the goal is down the road you'll be able to put that logo on software perhaps on hard devices who knows. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Does that help. Harrison_Tang: Yeah and by the way just uh uh uh a follow-up question on that so do you do you do you have thoughts in regards to exactly what kind of uh policies that will be in place for example what kind of identity Assurance level like will you do business entity verifications and so on so on. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): We are so 1 of the things we are we are definitely establishing at at at the IRA level. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Ability to assert Assurance levels. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Itself is not going to be asserting Assurance levels. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): but the. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Goal is that we could we can connect multiple ecosystems that have a consistent way of saying this is what Assurance level X means. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): and this. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): This is what's behind it here are the liability and indemnity terms. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): There's the value exchange you know if you're having any any liability odds are pretty good you're paying for it. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Um so that we have a way of communicating that individual ecosystems will have their own way of saying hey this is uh um our Assurance level 1 of our Market goals is to help Drive alignment on those so that we don't have 17,000 different Assurance levels that we have to map between them. Harrison_Tang: Got it and can you clarify uh when you say ecosystem of ecosystems can you clarify an example of underlying ecosystem that's like for example velocity Network which uh specializing like employment screening is that is that kind of a a ecosystem you're talking about in your Federate federating all these ecosystems yeah. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Yeah absolutely so velocity network is 1 of our uh founding members. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): They're 1 of many on the workforce credentialing education side so the goal is how do we connect multiples of them so that a particular jurisdiction doesn't have to join 17 different ecosystems in order to have Market effect they can join whatever makes sense in their jurisdiction and we have kind of a global education ecosystem of ecosystems. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Does that help. Harrison_Tang: Yes thank you. Harrison_Tang: Any other questions before we move on. Drummond Reed: Cool all right thank you Daryl um um Harrison what I'm gonna propose now I will share my screen hopefully this works uh. Drummond Reed: Here with uh I'm going to do like you said a particular window and I'm gonna get this 1 right here and see if this works. Drummond Reed: Looks like it's coming through yeah good all right so um uh what I proposed do here is just uh use uh the content of the um uh. Drummond Reed: Of course the Daryl mentioned earlier um to to. Drummond Reed: You know. Drummond Reed: Dive a little bit deeper into okay so how does this actually work and where are we going with it um and uh and then you know it's it's great I love this this group because people do ask questions we get into real discussions about it um we also have uh uh uh Andor here so we can dive into the uh uh. Drummond Reed: A white paper if if that turns out to be helpful um but I I love the fact that we're already you know everyone's saying hey this is all about how the governance half meets the technology half um and uh and and and we're you know we're all about how governance actually gets done effectively uh in an ecosystem ecosystems model um so that's what I that's the paper I want to start out with I'm not I'm just gonna um give you I'm gonna use a couple diagrams from this paper to quickly uh or give you a sense uh we have a cross links to all the other white papers here I'll I'll I'll bring up the the contents so you can just see that what we do here is basically for folks that you know may not be as familiar as everyone on this call with what digital trust ecosystems are and how they work uh we explain that and then we explained and and why are we advocating ecosystem ecosystems model um and why does that. Drummond Reed: That end up. Drummond Reed: With this concept of what we call clusters uh which are are are ecosystems that share a common set of uh uh requirements typically for a family of credentials and the governance that goes with them and therefore they want to work together um to create a cluster and uh in the end realize the network effects of of having that uh uh common uh credential definition and governance and basically uh trust um. Drummond Reed: Shortly I'll. Drummond Reed: Go to the other paper that Daryl mentioned on of the special Network effects of Ira Network credentials but let's just start here um I'm going to shoot down just to the uh. Drummond Reed: Uh um you know we use the classic diagram um. Drummond Reed: Making sure folks. Drummond Reed: Again that might be new to this. Drummond Reed: Very touchy the uh um scrolling here I'll just get it up to that point uh that we're all familiar with in terms of uh the trust triangle and and what I call the governance Diamond um and the role in an ecosystem of whatever that governing body might be um as you know as as large courses uh government or group of governments like um the uh has um European digital identity wallet um uh ecosystem um uh I'm going to say everyone right now if you're looking for an example of an ecosystem of ecosystems that is in development out there in the real world it is the uh um European digital identity wallet ecosystem um I work for uh my you know my part of my day job I was working for Jen Jen is 1 of the uh leads 1 of the European um Udi a large-scale Pilots. Drummond Reed: 1 Of the work items we had there was to actually map um the uh European digital identity the digital identity wallet ecosystem into the trust of B model and explain how it is in ecosystem of ecosystems so it really fits this model quite well so do other National ecosystems like Bhutan. Drummond Reed: So uh anyway after explaining that we go down and we say hey once we have digital credentials. Drummond Reed: Uh the job of of the verification software the verifiers will be running everywhere has to go through these 4 steps they have to verify the signature on the credential they got to verify that the public key actually belongs to credential issuer and then the third step is where they go ah but is that issuer authorized within whatever ecosystems it's it's operating or the verifier uh is issue authorized to issue or is a verifier authorized to verify um as you said Harrison you've got. Drummond Reed: Work item on verifying the verifier so you know this problem quite well and then related to that course is uh number 4 revocation uh which were purposed in this paper we're saying that's that similar we're going to treat it as a specialized uh trust registry function it can be carried out various ways but primarily looking at okay how do we deal if. Drummond Reed: Identifiers such as dids can handle um the second issue how do we deal with the Third. Drummond Reed: And we have a little bit of information about verifiable identifiers so trust registries you know operate where they fit in that some examples and then we go down to saying all right. Drummond Reed: First thing we need uh if we're going to have interoperability between a a cross these ecosystems is we need a standard way to be able to talk to the trust Registries for those ecosystems and that is the work that's been undertaken and Trust over IP since we started it uh back in uh the uh. Drummond Reed: Good health pass project uh of a standardized trust registry query protocol that's the trq P we see here this is a diagram from the the uh trq piece back that uh points out you can talk to all different kinds of bridges that work that that talk to the actual underlying authoritative systems whether they're open ID systems or they're um um. Drummond Reed: X509 based uh uh systems or or whatever they might be generic bridges into into a train or or you trusted list what we're trying to do with tqp is standardized. Drummond Reed: I uh client software uh the verification software could request the verification metadata it needs regardless of the type of underlying system so as long as there's a bridge of that system that information would be available and the vert verifier can can take care of that task. Drummond Reed: Um and and once you have that of course we have an example of trust or a few system now you get into all right well if you have that basis why do we need an ecosystem of ecosystems model. Drummond Reed: And uh we find a lot a lot of folks when we first. Drummond Reed: Uh you know first started talking about Gantt publicly a lot of folks said well how is it like DNS how is it different from DNS. Drummond Reed: Uh so we said hey that's what we wanted to address in this paper and I think again everyone in this call I assume is pretty familiar with DNS and the fact that um it is a um a Federated model it's a hierarchical model um you you you work your way down a tree uh through a series of requests. Drummond Reed: Because DNS names uh uh are hierarchical. Drummond Reed: And uh and that's fine obviously it's uh something that says scaled um and and is powering the internet today um the the security issues around DNS uh you know we've been working at them for a long time and DNS SEC has made real progress there um but again this is this is named to uh IP address or name to uh attribute um mapping and that's what that model is very effective for um the key difference though is that when it comes to trust trust is not. <tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(openlinksw.com)> typo on previous slide -- most details about example.org, but final hostname is www.example.com Drummond Reed: Can be hierarchical but it's inherently heterarchical um you you have trust between uh peers as well as trust that is uh hierarchical we tried to capture it here in this uh uh simple illustrative diagram where you see the Red Arrows you have hierarchical trust uh this might for instance be you know how a model in this upper corner of how the EU um. <andor_kesselman> good callout TallTed. Thank you for your eye. Will note for fixing later <tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(openlinksw.com)> (that was PDF page 13, I believe) Drummond Reed: As an ecosystem ecosystems have um eui Works where you've got a a a list of of National Trust Registries or or trust lists that might then um um delegate down to uh more more local uh or Regional trust lists in those member states. Drummond Reed: At the certainly at the quote top level um or across uh a network uh which is intentionally and ecosystem of ecosystems because all of these are their own ecosystems. Drummond Reed: What you have is you have pure recognition. Drummond Reed: It's not delegation because all of these peers just like Sovereign Nations uh do not delegate to each other they recognize each other and you have diplomatic recognition which you can give. Drummond Reed: To a country. Drummond Reed: Or you can withdraw from a country and that's what we're representing here with these these blue lines and what the trq protocol you can query a trust registry not just for what um authorizations it provides within its own ecosystem but what other trusts Registries it recognizes. Drummond Reed: And and that's that is the essence of what we call the ecosystem ecosystems model. Drummond Reed: Um and uh the last point I'll make about this paper is that uh you can see here in in perhaps this little um um section that when you have a set of ecosystems that share uh a common set of problems um and and you know it's endemic name any industry financial services with kyc um. Drummond Reed: Uh the health industry with all different kinds of credentials from you know vaccines to um uh different kinds of of of disease information certainly travel is another common example that comes up uh we could go on for quite a bit. Drummond Reed: We got tired of saying well those are all ecosystems of ecosystems themselves so we came up with a simple term we call them a cluster. Drummond Reed: And we believe that the way that um this this network will start to evolve um uh is in the formation of clusters. Drummond Reed: Uh and individual ecosystems will say hey we really need a network effect between ourselves and and to do that let's collaborate on the development of a uh a family of credentials and governance for that cluster uh and and that's what those ecosystems will do together so you'll have Sovereign ecosystems collaborating on clusters and those clusters then can collaborate on uh recognizing each other and that's what forms what we call the IRA trust network uh and and we're fully cognizant that there may be other um. Drummond Reed: Efforts uh similar to. Drummond Reed: Hyra we're not trying to be the only such effort. Drummond Reed: We're just trying. Drummond Reed: Trying to uh get this network effect going and enable interoperability between these ecosystems. Drummond Reed: So I think that's the the last point I want to make relative to this paper before we're going over to the network credentials paper so I'm going to stop there and see are there any uh any questions folks want to ask about the basic model. Harrison_Tang: Yes uh Nas. Harrison_Tang: Join the queue. Tom S: Uh I'm comparatively a newbie so please don't mind if my question is a little uh okay uh so the there I read the white paper before the call and there was a part where uh there's a mention about some of the examples of trust registry queries uh where is Hospital X authorized to issue Health credential why in ecosystem Z or uh basically saying that which issuer can issue credentials and which verifier can verify credentials when we say it in that manner there seems to be a higher controlling mechanism as in I'm trying to understand who and how these rules are decided uh does my question make sense. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Yep do you want me to jump in Drummond. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Yeah so this is a this is a great example 1 of the things that that that kind of a Bugaboo of mine is some of the decentralized world thinks that everything is decentralized it's not. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): when you. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Do look to say is that a legitimate Hospital. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): There is some Authority in your jurisdiction that can answer that question. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): That I mean I'm from Canada that is a provincial level jurisdiction. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): There are some federal military hospitals but we can from Canada's perspective tell you who those authorities are you can do the same in in pretty much every country. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Key is how do you assess their systems of record which they already maintained Hospital licensing they already do all that work and then just surface that data that lets you ask the question you know is that hospital authorized to issue this thing under your jurisdiction. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): You know education might be an easier 1 to think about because less uh a little less consequential. <andor_kesselman> Thank you for taking the time to read the whiepapers Nivas. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): It's not as uh High Assurance but it's you know is that a legitimate high school diploma is that a legitimate degree or diploma from a higher education institution you have some body that's doing that. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): On the last formal basis you may have a very decentralized Network that you're tapping into to get the answer to your question. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): does that. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Help lever neas. Tom S: Uh yeah but uh the second part of the question about verifier I mean I do understand about issuer uh that there is a governing body that decides who gets to issue these things but why do we have this for verifier because verifier is just playing a a simpler role right. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): What what what so here here's an example um verifier my my hunch right now you know let's check this in 5 or ten years is it to be far more common to have issuers being restricted are you an issuer but there are ecosystem uses that say um are you allowed to ask for that thing um where you want to know who the verifiers are as an example there's an operating system. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): In British Columbia. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Where the Law Society they manage the list of lawyers. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Provides uh credentials that say I'm a lawyer. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Currently it's restricted who can ask for it because they're doing a pilot but they're limiting it to access to an Evidence evidence system. <drummond> One of the ecosystems restricting verification is the EUDI Wallet ecosystem. They are requiring verifier of the PID red to be verified. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Then they added in access to prisons so that you can go and visit your client type of thing they're really restricting the current usage of it and then probably going to my guess is they're going to open that up. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): but you also. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Uh passports fall under this exact mode that you and I as just regular folks can get information from a passport but if we're a nation state we can get more information from a passport that's all done through crypto I have access to the decryption keys at a different level for the passport but you can do similar capabilities but you don't have to limit the verifiers nor do you have to limit the issuers for that matter you just have to you know what is your ecosystem need. Harrison_Tang: Yeah I want. Tom S: Got it okay thank you thank you for that thanks I'll come questions later at the end yeah. Harrison_Tang: Yeah I want to add also like in United States like a lot of uh data like sensitive data is regulated so the verifiers basically has to basically have permissions they have to uh have some kind of identity assurance and be permissioned to actually access this kind of data so for example Health Data is 1 famous example the other 1 is financial data yeah. Harrison_Tang: Great you're on the queue. Dmitri Zagidulin: Can you hear me. Dmitri Zagidulin: Okay I think at least the transcriber is picking up. Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh so I wanted to. Dmitri Zagidulin: Add to that question because it's a really important 1. Dmitri Zagidulin: Where I think we've educated people that. Dmitri Zagidulin: Short Registries are important. Dmitri Zagidulin: And now we're facing the bigger task but just as important educating people why verify our Registries are important. Dmitri Zagidulin: And I think here. Dmitri Zagidulin: We're a little restricted by the term verifier because it's not actually the verifier that we're restricting that we want to register. Dmitri Zagidulin: The main tenet of main pillar of the verifiable credential ecosystem is that. <drummond> Agreed that it is the requestor -- and what they will do with the verified data -- that needs protection. Dmitri Zagidulin: Anybody can verify at any point right verify early verify often so that's that's not the problem verification is done cryptographically it's uh either free or really an expensive that's not the problem what we need Registries for is to determine who's allowed to ask you for the credential in the first place right so so think of these whenever you see verify registry think really request her Registries and so uh. Dmitri Zagidulin: Drummond and and others um. Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh and Daryl and and Harrison have have given great examples of this so yeah I just just want to add that mental substitution we see verify registry think who's allowed. <drummond> here here to Dmitri's point. Strongly agree. Dmitri Zagidulin: I think user interface when the user is going to be requested for credentials they want to know who the hell is asking and are they authorized to do so okay that's it. <joe_andrieu> That's crazy. Restricting who can request information is ridiculous. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Demetri that is a really 1 of the as you know 1 of the hard things we have in this industry is terms what words do we use and I I really really like that term better than verifier it also what about the non-credentialed. Dmitri Zagidulin: Jar I'm I saw Joe and Joe in chat asking. Dmitri Zagidulin: Restricting who is asking for information that's ridiculous uh just want to just want to clarify uh. Dmitri Zagidulin: You are you joking there or do you really believe. Joe Andrieu: No I I I believe it wholeheartedly I think it's it is a huge flaw in a system to imagine that it's appropriate to say that someone can ask for information it's a DRM Approach at the censorship based approach it is different than helping individuals understand who they're talking to and and what they should trust them for. Joe Andrieu: The fact that you have the idea that someone has to be authorized is absolutely contrary to the notion of Freedom which allows us to take lawful actions without permission. <harrison_tang> certain laws do restrict access to sensitive / regulated data. <dmitri_zagidulin> ah ok i get what you're saying joe Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): So so that can agree Joe on some of the clarity there that you can you can provide a guidance to the user that says hey someone just asked for stuff that normally is in this list of allowed folks they're not do you want to share it yes or no and you may make recommendations but I agree you should not be stopping them I do push back that that list of who what is normal who is authorized is important I do believe that. <harrison_tang> FCRA, GLBA, ... Harrison_Tang: All right any other questions and they'll drop me you have another paper you want to share so maybe should. <dmitri_zagidulin> so think of requestor registries not /constraining/ who is allowed to request, Drummond Reed: Sure I I but I this is exactly the kind of uh it's very rich discussion um I'll note that right now the canonical example of um. Drummond Reed: Uh of that discussion we were just happening is the the requirements in the um. Drummond Reed: Union digital identity wallet initiative around um. <dmitri_zagidulin> but instead helping identify (to the holder) WHO is requesting Drummond Reed: Trustless for verifiers of of the uh personal identity credentials pids um the EU is just adamant if you want to request that credential you need to be um. <dmitri_zagidulin> which is crucial Drummond Reed: I think at least identifiable I'm not sure if authorizes the right word but you need to be registered as a verifier um and I I think that adds to the transparency that will then uh support I I do Joe makes a great Point uh we we didn't create SSI. Drummond Reed: Give everyone a. <phillip_long> So the notion of an anonymous request would be either prohibited or in some way limited? I can see the entity who has received the request having the choice of responding but not they can't ask. Drummond Reed: Uh you know uh I want to restrict the information they can share um in any case um I do want to have time to pop over I'm gonna now pop over to this paper uh because I really want to highlight it um as as as Daryl said I was my favorite of the of the 4 papers that I have work on uh that the I highly recommend anyone who wants to to dive down I will at least if we run out of time I want to give a shout out. <dmitri_zagidulin> @phil just picture that UI that pops up Drummond Reed: To the uh technical white paper um uh and on custom and Dave whole track uh on the on the I read Tech Team um have done a fantastic job uh there's a lot of meat in here it goes you know down deep and and uh points to you know the real interoperability uh challenges for decentralized digital trust decentralized Registries at scale um so you know it's probably worth a whole another call on at. <darrell_o'donnell_(ayra)> This Special Network Effects paper changed some thinking for me and I found it incredibly valuable. Drummond Reed: Point uh. Drummond Reed: Soon but um. Drummond Reed: Uh let me just I gotta get a you know this these notices keep coming out. Drummond Reed: I gonna pop this. Drummond Reed: Out of the way. Drummond Reed: And uh so with this paper what I want to highlight is. Drummond Reed: 1 Of the reasons that you know. <dmitri_zagidulin> you get a popup that says "unknown party is requesting your drivers licence". would you ever say yes? <darrell_o'donnell_(ayra)> @Phil - some systems would limit anonymous requests, others wouldn't. Drummond Reed: Again originally got going and now Ira uh 1 of the 1 of the things that we think is possible with uh uh ecosystem of ecosystems uh and and and the the the network capabilities is to drive Network effects um for all of the participating ecosystems and and and and and some of the credentials they uh um. Drummond Reed: Um I'm going to go straight to this they're just 2 key diagrams in this paper that I want to quickly highlight and and explain basically as a advertisement to please go read it and and and and and and comment give us feedback on it. Drummond Reed: Uh the first 1 really captures that as as then explaining in uh an ecosystem ecosystem of ecosystems model you're going to have these 3 categories of credentials you're going to have credentials that are ecosystems specific and go to the example I always use there when I was in Bhutan. Drummond Reed: I'm visiting uh The pathan Innovation forum and seeing that 20 creds that the Bhutan National digital identity team has so far created to support different use cases of citizens interacting with the Bhutan government that is there are about 1 fifth of the way through I think it's like 115 uh use cases and I don't think it'll be that many credentials you get reusability of some of them but I think they're going to end up with at least 50 or 60 specific credentials that are needed for citizen or business interaction with the Bhutan government and they want to credential every 1 of those things to minimize friction make it as easy as possible for Citizens and businesses in Bhutan to do their business in a safe and trustworthy way with the government. Drummond Reed: So and fishing license is probably not terribly useful outside of um the Baton ecosystem however as this diagram points out and and hat tip to uh Joe Spencer and John Phillips at seu in Australia for for really helping us recognize that there are 2 categories if you create a sort of complete 1-off credential with its own semantics um that really restricts that it really only will be using that ecosystem however if you look at using semantics in that fishing license credential uh you know such as the maybe the personal data of this required it could be aligned with credentials at the cluster level or the ones that we'll talk about in a minute at what we call the IRA Network credential level. Drummond Reed: So so you can get Synergy and uh some degree of interoperability between if they're if they're aligned from the standpoint of semantics or governance elements. Drummond Reed: The cluster credentials are the ones I've been talking about along where you have a group of ecosystems that say we're all going to be better off if we can align on a credential family in the governance that we could all use and that will give us interoperability across ecosystems whether it's Finance or Healthcare or travel or supply chain what whatever it might be. Drummond Reed: Um and and those will be developed and then and then propagate through those clusters again. Drummond Reed: If they they could be you know cluster specific there can be cluster for instance you know what what uh some of the work in the educational space has been let's just go solve our problem right there but as they have the opportunity to be aligned with uh ecosystem specific or the iron Network credentials again we we tap the ability for greater reuse and interoperability to that information. Drummond Reed: That the IRA level uh if we can design a set of credentials uh uh you know admittedly it'll be a small family a very Universal credentials. Drummond Reed: Family would you like Network credentials could be useful in any ecosystem or any cluster because they address sort of fundamentals of digital trust and uh given we just have 10 minutes left I'm going to pop down to the other key diagram we have here um page 10 which is just overview of what is the initial proposal for the iron Network credential family. Drummond Reed: Um and not surprisingly yes organizational ID credential. Drummond Reed: Folks know life is 1 of our uh founding uh members uh they're in the business of providing these. Drummond Reed: Strong and Global organizational ID credential based on the uh Lei legal entity identifier uh we certainly think that is 1 uh you know strong pillar that can be behind uh an organizational ID credential that can be used across ecosystems. Drummond Reed: Many cases of needing to identify that organization that's why life exists was to create an identifier for that and as I think most folks know they have created a verifiable um credential version of that called the vlei. Drummond Reed: Um we believe that when it comes to trust anchors it's equally important to recognize communities that are not legal entities if these are strictly legal entities here um we have many many forms of communities out there that are not legal entities but still are um call it powerful sources of trust um classic example open source projects um the uh many of the standards here uh that that we've been working on are coming out of different Linux Foundation projects they have uh over 900 projects. Drummond Reed: Many different open source communities inside that they are great sources of trust but they're not legal entities or some of them are not legal entities. Drummond Reed: Um and then what you see in the center here is basically a proposal for surprise surprise a personhood credential um the basic idea here as explained in the white paper is that um when you have source of organizational Community Trust they can issue what we call verifiable relationship credentials uh which is literally a a credential that would that would um um it's it's a signed credential that can be issued we show them going in this direction but they actually be bidirectional as you see down here for person to person uh that can use basically the signed uh sets of pairwise DS um and uh with uh a proper trust model as an individual for instance this person accumulates different uh verifiable uh relationship credentials they can provide a zero knowledge proof of that as a reasonably strong not perfect but reasonably strong um uh personhood credential as discussed. Drummond Reed: In the personhood. Drummond Reed: Credential paper that came out last August which I I probably don't think I've handed out. Drummond Reed: More links to in my entire career I think it was just a seminal piece of work any of the authors of that paper that are on this call like Wendy Seltzer thank you thank you thank you. Drummond Reed: Menu I know is here as well so anyway this is this is uh uh what we're proposing uh and and uh some of us are going to participate in Workshop again next week on personal credentials and this is what we're going to be bringing their so I'm going to stop there and realize we have 6 minutes left any questions about that or uh anything else that we. Tom S: Uh yeah thank you so much I I want to ask my question in form of a scenario so it's easier to explain what I have in mind uh let's say there is a. Tom S: Dating app from country y uh which wants to use these first person credentials. Tom S: They would like to verify things like age sex and nationality and if if for them to be able to provide service uh if the if the nation if the citizens of country X as in country X doesn't want their citizens to participate in this dating app can they uh have the power to exhibit that I mean I'm I I don't know if I'm making sense basically there's a global dating app which wants to connect all the citizens in the world uh through first person credentials but there is a particular country which says my citizen should not connect to this dating app um is that possible technically if so what is the name of that like concept behind it yeah. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): I think that's possible through legislation but I don't know that you can stop it other than. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Clearly you wouldn't be able to get a government sanctioned age sex. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): You would have to go in formal at that point. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): The government could certainly say this app is illegal you know and then then thus talk to Google and apple and Yankee from the App Store. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): I don't think it's a capability of this network and nor do I think it should be this is more of a data distribution and you know legislation be legislation. Tom S: Okay so then. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Does that help. Tom S: This would not be self Sovereign I mean am I confusing Concepts basically I'm trying to see if the user who holds the first person credential has the ultimate power to decide uh who what all services can they access and not uh higher authority would that break that rule. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): It the the the technology would not break the rule. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): The the the law that says dating app X you shall not ask for that in this country they be breaking the law just like I might go faster than the speed limit. Tom S: Okay okay got it yeah that helps thanks. <drummond> source of the white papers I've been showing: https://ayra.forum/whitepapers/ Harrison_Tang: Yeah I just want to add a comment like neas I think there can be in the South Sovereign identity framework there can be multiple trust Frameworks there can be multiple Technologies you can choose to trust Anonymous uh verifier or any Anonymous entity or you can choose not to do it right so I think the technology enables uh decentralization and self sovereignty but then at the end of the day like you have to Anchor some kind of trust somewhere right I think error is presenting something here yeah. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Yeah I mean you may get a different Assurance level in that particular country and you may have other forces that are causing you to not operate in that country you know legislation your insurance providers may say hey we can't get the assurances know we're we're we don't operate there but there's nothing in the network itself that but I think create that condition. <andor_kesselman> Ayra isn't scoped to manage an ecosystem's authorizations. This is an ecosystem controlled layer. Tom S: Uh sorry I have 1 last follow-up question is there a possibility of scenario where the Country official gets to say that a particular service provider a gets access to a sex and nationality but another particular type of uh service provider doesn't get access to these like I'll give a different example let's say I want to launch a new cryptocurrency uh providing air drops to the first 1 million users and this could challenge the um the power of that particular National nationalities currency so uh does that mean uh the Country official will allow uh access to these in information in 1 particular scenario and not in another particular scenario like can we Define these rules like that. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): The the the yes the governance the the business and governance rules could certainly be defined that way that says hey I am asking to check this under the context of. <drummond> Yes, ecosystems are sovereign in the Ayra ecosystem of ecosystems model. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Traditional Finance if I as a company go in and act and then use that license if you will. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Asking a different context I'm breaking the rules. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): But we don't want to we don't want to we don't want to intrude upon the sovereignty of the individual. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): The sovereignty of the nation right. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): They they have other they have other mechanisms I don't think we want to build mechanisms into IRA. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): That are better handled by the courts by the laws of the system we want to. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Uh enable information exchange and you may find hey this is the sanctioned High Assurance identity credential may not be allowed in other places. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): But as a human if I have connections with 150 people in a particular area who know me and are all highly reputable and have vouched for me that might become a more powerful identity. Darrell_O'Donnell_(Ayra): Then a national identity credential. <darrell_o'donnell_(ayra)> I need to run unfortunately. Thanks folks and keep being awesome!!! Harrison_Tang: I I will. Drummond Reed: And it's pointing out that that also means we can address inclusion uh issues in places where where individuals do not have access to uh or or even prohibited from having access to government sanctioned identity um yeah some of us I know here at ccg have been big Advocates of of um what might be called edgeless or or social verification for a long time so uh I know we're out of time uh Harrison I knew we would you know this is just a great Community to have these discussions with super happy to do this uh be happy to you know come back in the deeper I know Andor and uh uh never got a chance to talk about um uh you know deeper dive but we we're here go ahead. Harrison_Tang: Yeah I I will want to uh schedule a follow-up I think this is a great discussion and I I'm I'm sure other people have more questions that you want to ask yeah. <phillip_long> Reschedule for a deep dive! Drummond Reed: Super well thanks for the opportunity and we look forward to I'm planning uh on uh we're going to be at dice um and IW as well so uh lots of good chances to dive into this. <andor_kesselman> thank you everyone <andor_kesselman> great call Harrison_Tang: For you I'll follow up with you guys but thank you um and thanks thanks everyone for attending this week's ccg call this concludes the call thanks a lot. Drummond Reed: Thanks Harrison very much. Drummond Reed: You bet.
Received on Wednesday, 5 February 2025 14:45:02 UTC