- From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
- Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2023 18:33:15 +0000
Thanks to Our Robot Overlords and Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week! The transcript for the call is now available here: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2023-08-22/ Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes. Audio of the meeting is available at the following location: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2023-08-22/audio.ogg ---------------------------------------------------------------- W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference Transcript for 2023-08-22 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/advanced_search?hdr-1-name=subject&hdr-1-query=%5BAGENDA&period_month=Aug&period_year=2023&index-grp=Public__FULL&index-type=t&type-index=public-credentials&resultsperpage=20&sortby=date Topics: 1. Announcements and Reminders 2. Open Agenda Organizer: Mike Prorock, Kimberly Linson, Harrison Tang Scribe: Our Robot Overlords and Our Robot Overlords Present: Harrison Tang, Paul Dietrich GS1, Dmitri Zagidulin, Jeff O - HumanOS, pauld gs1, Greg Natran, Manu Sporny, Sharon Leu, Geun-Hyung, Brian Richter, Kaliya Young, Hiroyuki Sano, Japan, Leo, Erica Connell, Wendy Seltzer, Kimberly Linson, Benjamin Young, Mike Prorock, Orie Steele, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) (OpenLinkSw.com), Marty Reed, Phil Long, Chandi Cumaranatunge, BrentZ, Andres Uribe, Julien Fraichot, Bob Wyman, David I. Lehn, Henry Story Our Robot Overlords are scribing. Harrison_Tang: So welcome to this week's at w3c ccg meeting today we actually have an open Agenda and quarterly review for the Q3 of 2023 but before we get to that I just want to quickly do some code of ethics and professional conduct reminder. Harrison_Tang: Let's continue to remain cordial and respectful to each other and if you have any questions in regards to w3c's code of ethics and conduct just let any of the cultures no quick IP know anyone can participate in these calls however all substantive contributions to any ccg work items must be member of the ccg with full IP our agreement signed make sure you have a w3c account and if you have. Harrison_Tang: encounter any problems again just let any of the. Harrison_Tang: Kimberly Mike and I know. Harrison_Tang: All right all the meetings minutes and audio recordings you know these meetings are being recorded right now and automatically transcribe we try to publish these meeting minutes and recordings with think a few days so I think we have been relatively good at doing that in the past few months but if you have encounter any problems again just ping ping any of us we used. Harrison_Tang: GG chat chat to Q speakers do. Harrison_Tang: As well as to take minutes you can type Q Plus to add yourself to a queue or q- to remove remove it at any time you can just type in Q question mark to see who is in the cube all right any introductions were reintroductions if you're new to the community or you want to kind of re introduce yourself and re-engage with the community please feel free to unmute. Harrison_Tang: Right since we have an open agenda today if you are feeling shy right now and you feel last child later I feel free to unmute and introduce yourself at any time. Harrison_Tang: Announcements and reminders any announcements or reminders. Topic: Announcements and Reminders Harrison_Tang: I'm talking about the iwi on you please. Manu Sporny: Eric is in the queue in front of me I think. Harrison_Tang: Sorry long go first. Erica Connell: You there thank you happy Tuesday just a friendly reminder that rebooting the web of trust is coming up September 18th through the 22nd in in Cologne Germany I will put a link to the event break in the chat and you can find out all the details and information there and including info about support and scholarships and so on thanks a bunch that's it. Harrison_Tang: Thank you my money. Manu Sporny: Go ahead kaliya sorry I put myself at the end. Erica Connell: https://rwot12.eventbrite.com/ Manu Sporny: Your audio super distant Kalia different Mike I guess. Manu Sporny: Nope still very. Mike Prorock: He helped will get a clear back in and just a second whenever light comes up. <manu_sporny> OID4VCI support added to CHAPI Playground: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2023Aug/0054.html Manu Sporny: I'll go until Clea fixes that like just so I've got for updates the first one is that oid for VCI support has been added to the chappie playgrounds since this is an open jenda today I can do a short demo for those of you that are wondering what it looks like but that addition was made last week. <manu_sporny> Maintenance on CCG infrastructure: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2023Aug/0057.html <manu_sporny> New versions of Multibase and Multihash published: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2023Aug/0056.html <manu_sporny> PING WG review: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2023Aug/0055.html <harrison_tang> Sorry. I had a weird power outage. Just got back on <kaliya_identitywoman> just a sec <kaliya_identitywoman> i'll try again <orie> sounds like you are in a micro sub <kaliya_identitywoman> ok i can try again. Our Robot Overlords are scribing. Mike Prorock: Things for usage particularly dilithium I suspect in the case of verifiable credentials so kaliya you want to give it a go again. Mike Prorock: You're in a slightly bigger micro sub since to quote Ori from the chat but it's barely Audible. <kaliya_identitywoman> IIW is coming up! <kaliya_identitywoman> Oct 10-12 <kaliya_identitywoman> Pre meetings - OpenID, Open Wallet, Plugfest etc. <dmitri_zagidulin> and JFF Wallet Interop Plugfest #3 is the day before, also in Mountain View, Oct 9! Mike Prorock: Iiw is coming up October 10th 12th check it out be there if you like Kalia and all the other people that show up there who are all awesome so hopefully that's a good advertisement for Kalia because she knows come on the not a rah-rah kind of person but I actually highly approve of her activities their open ID open Wallet plugfest etcetera one note is the chairs here are coordinating. Kaliya Young: https://internetidentityworkshop.com/ Mike Prorock: Kalia to go ahead and get a joint ccg intro session at iaw Etc so we'll figure out something there so that if you're at iiw we won't be necessarily missing all the normal festivities stuff like that so those details will be posted to the list well in advance but just be aware of that and is Dimitri noted in the chat for those of us that are participants in this jmf wallet interop plugfest will be the day before that will be October night so. Mike Prorock: Cool hopefully I hit all. Topic: Open Agenda Mike Prorock: It's there Harrison I see you're back anything else you want to note I know we've got open agenda today I'm not seeing anyone else except myself for the Post Quantum know that I already made in Hue so I think we're ready to move on into the main block of the meeting here today we had planned on doing just a quarter to let you know once a quarter as ccg we plan on running basically an open Agenda. Mike Prorock: And little. Mike Prorock: You couple of notes from the chairs on things that are going on it's usually gets summarized up by the agenda anyways but it's really a forum that can run as long as we need to for the rest of the 40 minutes we have available or as short as desired but really to go through and identify what's next are we missing work items are we. Mike Prorock: Basically what's going on right now and how can we as chairs and how can we as a group serve each other better and continue to expand obviously we've seen some Focus change over the last couple of years here at CCD right where it's now brought down a bit there's a lot of activity going on in the space there's a lot of activity going on in other software development organizations right there was a great thread Post in this morning. Mike Prorock: I'm mentioning Fair. Mike Prorock: Rolls over in the new identity discuss list over and ITF right so we're seeing a lot of interesting conversation in the space and it's stuff that incubated here emerged out of here emerged really I think a lot of times from iiw and then you know some concrete work here and then along so that to me is really fascinating and exciting but it also means like what's next right what's new and what's coming down the pike so with that I'm going to shut up and just monitor q and. Mike Prorock: Hit turn it over to the community. Mike Prorock: NATO since I'm on mute. Manu Sporny: Yeah yeah thanks Mike I wanted to kind of talk a bit about interop and plugfest and stuff like that so like you know jobs for the future plugfest number three is happening right now which is great in we recently for those of you that haven't seen the kind of one of the one of the interop you know platforms that's being used for the plugfest this is the the chappie playground and the. Manu Sporny: The latest thing that we just. Manu Sporny: Is this new feature for oid for so if you go up to this little gear icon up here you can now switch between different protocols so this is all all three protocols that we know of right now we could add did come in the future if someone's willing to put in that that work but we've got browser to browser which includes all these different issuer platforms that we can use for that using VC API we've got VC API. Manu Sporny: If you have a native wallet and then we also have oid for supported as well so this is an example of the oid issuance flow with the authentication so this is the that was the chappie Wallace selector popping up with oid for this is doing a did authentication overall ID for and this is receiving a permanent resident card into the digital wallet over oid for. Manu Sporny: For now the only thing that oid for doesn't have. Manu Sporny: We need to notify the website that you know in in band that you've gotten your credential but if I go over to my wallet this was it before I got that permanent resident card and this is it me with the permanent resident card in the wallet so all that to say we've got this you know infrastructure that we are investing in as a community through jmf plugfest three. Manu Sporny: We hope to continue. Manu Sporny: Staying in that infrastructure or we will we will be through the use of multiple different protocols and I guess the general question you know the group is like what can we add you know they're their plans to add more types of verifiable credentials there are plans to support more protocols for verification we are currently integrating you know issuer platforms and. Manu Sporny: Looking at integrating more verifier. Manu Sporny: Using the C API so general question to the community is like you know is this a useful thing for the community to look at and work on and if so what what should we think about adding to it to demonstrate the sorts of interrupt that we have today that's it. Mike Prorock: If I could successfully click the mute button I think Cory is up next. Orie Steele: Thanks Maya could you talk a bit about like why open ID connect for verifiable credential issuance was added to the chappie playground you know what are the use cases for it who like you know how much support does it have what different kinds of companies are kind of clamoring to use that particular delivery mechanism just like some more of like a business. Orie Steele: Around what a lie that protocol was added because because we've had people been people have been talking about did come in this context for so long why was open ID connect for verifiable credential issuance added before did Cam you know what's the sort of expected users why is it why is it you know important gym or at a business level and you know from the perspective of you know in the three party model. Orie Steele: Which issuers are really excited about it open I deacon. <mprorock> OIDC4VP... Orie Steele: Whole credential issuance which verifiers are really excited about it I guess that sentence doesn't really make sense because that protocols only from the issue or to the holder so I can get and then maybe the next question would be when will support for open ID connect for verifiable presentations be added what are what are folks who are interested in open ID connect for verifiable credential issuance. Orie Steele: Like thinking about. Orie Steele: When I die. Orie Steele: Act for verifiable presentations sorry that's a lot really just business prospects around who's going to use it that's it. Mike Prorock: Yeah Phil do you mind if I let man who respond to or he's questions there or do you want to tag on first. <phil_t3> Go right ahead Manu Sporny: Got he single right here okay. <orie> I love the transcriber... it constantly misquotes me Mike Prorock: All right maybe we lost Oco don't get wet and cool awesome yeah it definitely made it I would love some comments on my way to see for VP that would certainly actually for my standpoint as an implementer and get me interested about the champion playground so. <bblfish> I just realised I have been looking at VC mapping to N3 and that there is a group of experts here. Manu Sporny: Yeah so let's see why did we put it in there for a while now I mean since 2015 so eight going on eight years now chappie has always been protocol agnostic it just so happens that the first thing the easiest thing to implement was the browser browser thing because you didn't need you didn't need a bunch of back-end servers and heavy protocols and things like that. Manu Sporny: That to. Manu Sporny: People there's a group of companies that are excited about oid for VCI in so and to be clear one of our customers really wants it and so that was the driving force between us you know implementing it right it's just there was a a customer that wanted to see it happen and so we had to roll up our sleeves and implement it having. Manu Sporny: Done that. Manu Sporny: We are not fans of oid for VCI however it is going to probably be one of the protocols that exists in the ecosystem along with a bunch of other protocols So This Is Us trying to keep Pace with what various different stove pipes in the verifiable credential ecosystem is doing by just supporting everything right in by supporting. <dmitri_zagidulin> I /hope/ to be a fan of OIDC4VP -- once it stabilizes & decides on whether it's supporting Presentation Exchange or what Manu Sporny: Clearly it makes the ecosystem way more complex than any one of us would want in each one of those stovepipes but that's kind of where we are so chubby playground is just reflecting reality there we have been contacted for example by a number of companies that are like hey I have this super proprietary protocol and I want you to build it into the chappy playgrounds and our response to that is chappy is protocol agnostic so while we do not. Manu Sporny: Agree with your super proprietary protocol. Manu Sporny: Because Chappy's protocol agnostic you can list your protocol in the protocol selector and if a wallet says that they support your proprietary protocol chappie will support that too so this is just what I'm trying to highlight here or he's just like you know chappies agnostic and that's what's being built out in we're building building the features out based on what we're seeing some customers requests and. Manu Sporny: In some of the ecosystem suggest. <orie> sounds like you added support for something, so you could show it was not a good idea.... and only 1 organization wants to use it? <brentz> wait, I wasn't paying close attention. Is OIDC4VC somehow proprietary? Manu Sporny: It's also you know just to be you know clear we're also trying to like Tamp down the temperature in the room a bit by saying you know the the the fight doesn't need to be over chappie and what it does the fight could be about protocols but what one of the things that we have found with implementing all three that I showed so you know I showed the the selector here being able to. Manu Sporny: Like between. Manu Sporny: Hauser to wallet V Capi exchanges and oid for VC I is that you can mix and match protocols both on the issuing side and the presentation side so today you can go into the chappie playground and you can issue using an ID for VCI and then you can present using the browser to browser VPR stuff or VC API in a couple of weeks so it's kind of its kind of. Manu Sporny: And neat like it kind of shows like hey we got the. Manu Sporny: Because you can use different protocols to move the same data model over it and you can even mix and match pick up versus delivery and that's demonstrably that's demonstrate both today through chappie playground with respect to all ID for VP we didn't Implement that yet we will but it is it's moving it's moving too much we couldn't we couldn't get to a profile that the at least the people that were talking. Manu Sporny: Within the jff. <orie> have you seen this profile? https://identity.foundation/jwt-vc-presentation-profile/#profile Manu Sporny: I'd like agree to in the end because you know open IDs like this grab bag of different things you can do you have to profile it before you can use it and there is no profile that we have seen agreed upon yet to do make that work once that appears in some fashion that's more than just like one or two companies you know and interrupting on a profile will put that into the chappie playground and it'll have you know protocols supported. Manu Sporny: Out there as well as for the issuers. <dmitri_zagidulin> @Brentz - 4VC is not proprietary, there have been other srsly proprietary protocols for VCs that have been asked about Mike Prorock: +1 To this: https://identity.foundation/jwt-vc-presentation-profile/#profile Manu Sporny: Other people can speak to this frankly the issuer the customers that we have that are issuers don't really care they're just like get my credential out there in a format that's useful and because there's all this confusion in the marketplace about which formats going to be useful just make it so that I can issue everything under the sun and verify everything under the sun and so that's where you know because of a failure. Manu Sporny: Of all of these communities to Define you know a small set of ways of doing this you know customers are now asking for every conceivable iteration because they don't know which one is going to win in the end so that's it hopefully that answered some of your questions or e. Phil Long: Yeah I'm going to ask. Mike Prorock: Yeah I'm going to have some follow-up questions on that I see Brent I think had some follow-up questions in the chat so we'll get to that too but Phil you want to go. <dmitri_zagidulin> @mprorock @Orie - I've seen that profile, but there's current conversation with OIDF, who were considering dropping support for DIF PresEx Phil Long: Like to but filled you Leo yeah can you hear me okay yep great this is actually follow up man oh to your question about the functionality where uses of the chappie playground and I guess one of my questions was if this is intended to be a place for people to take their credentials at their Jerry they're creating and add it to the playground to test it in issuing and Etc functionality that you have there. Phil Long: Is there something. Phil Long: Would be useful to the both you and the people managing the playground as well as everybody else to do to document whose credentials they are and how to contact the individuals who are using or have added that credential in a nice straight easy way or maybe it's already there I'm not seeing it thanks. Mike Prorock: Meaning you want to respond. Manu Sporny: Yeah although I'm concerned about eating up too much time on this one topic real quick to answer I'll try to get very brief with the responses so there is a DC examples repo in the credential Handler project on GitHub in all of the things that you see showing up here. <phil_t3> @manu got it. <phil_t3> NASCAR! Manu Sporny: We're pull requests on to the credentials in here so people can go in raised PR's you know we'll make sure it's in the right shape and then if it is we'll go ahead and add the credential to this list we do have planes to add many many more credentials which means this interface is going to become on unusable at some point when they're too many and then we'll probably break it down into different categories. Manu Sporny: Tagore he's it's all dependent on. Manu Sporny: You know people contributing examples so all that to say yes there's an examples repo yes you can put in you can add whatever you want to there chappie playground will take care of you know serving the contexts and all that kind of stuff for the demo credential in then there's even a custom credential URL here that you can just take whatever VCU have and dump it in here. Manu Sporny: Are in the playground. Manu Sporny: Will issue that credential if you use like one of the issuer back end so your best bet is to just use the issuer back in that's built into the JavaScript code but you if you add your own issue or back-end here you can use those issue or back ends to issue the VC so again like you know not every combination works. Manu Sporny: Or will work but this definitely. <phil_t3> Thanks Manu Sporny: To figure out like if I create a credential you know will at least these sets of issuers be able to issue that credential into a format that my wallet whichever wallet I pick to pick up the credential will understand I'll stop there. Dmitri Zagidulin: Sure just to brief answer to Horry about business use case so part of the reason that. Dmitri Zagidulin: The digital bizarre have been kind enough to add the open ID for Star support for Pratap you playground has to do with the jobs for the future foundations plug fests so the third plugfest is dealing with. Dmitri Zagidulin: With with wallets and verification and there's a handful of companies that are using open ID for VCI for issuance and they wanted a convenient way to provision wallet. Dmitri Zagidulin: So that you know that they can display and verify the credentials and so on. Dmitri Zagidulin: Far as a DC for VP supports those same companies would love to see Odyssey for VP support HIV playground the the current the current stumbling block the current drama is that open ID Foundation has proposed removing support for presentation exchange from oid for VP and so there's there's been a lot of and specifically removing support for the. <orie> seems smart to remove Presentation Exchange, thats a sorta questionable DIF spec, with a lot of overhead. Dmitri Zagidulin: Multiple credentials in in a already see for VP request which which kind of threw a lot of open energy using plugfest participants in disarray now since then the diff presentation exchange group I know IDF has have talked there is a already see for VP version 2.1 in progress with like reduced capabilities to address some of the IDF feedback but. Dmitri Zagidulin: Like I suspect myself and many others. Dmitri Zagidulin: Our open ID fans are are hoping that'll get sorted out so that happy playground can support o ID for VP that's it. <manu_sporny> Yes, we can't build on jello <manu_sporny> I mean, we can build on jello... it just wouldn't work out well :) Mike Prorock: Cool the yeah it's sort of like always that XKCD comic about you know five standards and then they're being 6 Etc but yet mainly I guess I think most of my questions have been answered but I guess I did want to clarify that's all linked data you know 1.1 VCS right. <orie> we should plan to make this picture better in vcdm v2' Mike Prorock: Okay yeah definitely. Manu Sporny: Yes correct because that's what most of the plugfest folks are using but again chappie playground is protocol agnostic if people wanted to do other formats once the handoff happens from chappie to the app it's up to the app to use whatever format they want I mean you know we could do em doc right using the using the hand doc hand off if we wanted. <orie> format agnostic != protocol agnostic.... it sounds like chapi playground is both format and protocol agnostic Dmitri Zagidulin: +1 Manu - the /examples/ are 1.1 VCs, but the CHAPI protocols themselves can use whatever data model <orie> which is much stronger Mike Prorock: Yeah that would definitely be interesting for sure definitely pull measure IO from that list because we're kind of deprecating all of our 1.1 stuff in advance of moving into 2.0 etcetera and certainly are moving away from linked data proofs for a variety of reasons or at least any publicly exposed ones we had to shut them off because of some concerns there so please do post when you get a chance the let's see Ori. Orie Steele: I really think many thanks for the answer I do feel like the business framing still even with Demetrius comments I don't and you not understand not wanting to name names you know here but yeah I still feel like the business framing around the value of open ID connect for VC issuance is weak and it should be stronger and I get the in some sense the value of the chubby play. Orie Steele: Ground with having all of this configuration and. <dmitri_zagidulin> @Orie - OIDC issuance /in general/, or using a CHAPI wallet selector specifically? Orie Steele: A testing perspective but like you said man who it's sort of like one of the challenges the industry is facing is there's so many options and the inner existing interface is sort of perpetuating that by forwarded them directly to the consumers so we know when we add open ID connect for VP to that list of protocols and continue to be both format agnostic and protocol agnostic in a world you know after verifiable credentials version 2. Orie Steele: To where the format potential formats are. Orie Steele: Based on media type registrations it seems like we're kind of heading deeper into the woods there on way too many formats way too many protocols and the community seems to be kind of doubling down on not making recommendations and instead of forwarding all a cart kind of configuration opportunity to ecosystem so I wonder you know for verifiable credentials version 2 if it's not too late to. Orie Steele: Turn that boat around and say there she'll be. <manu_sporny> I don't disagree with Orie :) Orie Steele: Format and you know it she'll be data Integrity proofs and everything is going to be simpler because of that and yes you know the tent isn't bigger but at least you can understand what's in their tent now just floating that idea for consideration since it's an open call I think it's it's. Orie Steele: In the right. Orie Steele: Doesn't make everyone happy but it's still the right thing to do and I feel like avoiding conflict can often lead to longer term conflict than tackling conflict directly and just being right or wrong so I hope that sort of makes sense but I am sort of concerned that we are acknowledging that these problems exist in the community and instead of saying you know all right well we're going to make some enemies and we're going to make some concrete recommendations and we're not going to support you know. Orie Steele: Any animal Under the Sun we seem to be sort of. Orie Steele: Sensitive approach and furthering that pain indefinitely so yeah that's my comment but I appreciate the answer and you know really great work on the chappie playground I think it's a really valuable part of our ecosystem community and to the extent that it does show all the different configuration options it's also a frightening reflection of our current image that's it. Mike Prorock: Awesome thanks Horry Manu. Manu Sporny: Yes so I do not disagree with you or I think that the yeah I just agree with the a lot of what you said make people feel a little bit better about the selection you know issues here one of the things that if you look closely at what chappie playground is doing it allows you to multi-select protocols. Manu Sporny: It's so it allows you. Manu Sporny: To invoke digital wallets where you say as an issuer I support protocols XY and z and if that wallet supports any of those protocols it'll show up in the chappie selector in the benefits to this so I'm trying to already speak to your like we don't want to put all this optionality in front of the user totally agree we do not want to do that they don't care the issuer's don't care the verifiers don't care they just. Manu Sporny: Wanted like a really nice you know. Manu Sporny: Um but at the same time I'm we are very has we meaning dishes are very hesitant to try and pour gasoline onto a fire that's already burning right so you know splitting communities and half or making the hard decisions as you say would be could lead us somewhere good but it could also very easily lead us somewhere really bad right so what we're trying to do here. Manu Sporny: At least with the chappie. Manu Sporny: Messages the message that the wallet gets is like the issuer will speak any of these protocols if you if you want in if we do something like that then all of a sudden the number of wallets that will support receiving a credential from that issuer go way up right so it's not an A versus B it's a yes and approach it's a you can do a and you can do B and you can do see wallet pick one and you will get your credential and. Manu Sporny: We expect the same to happen. Manu Sporny: Presentation part of this now there are some limits to that but that's what we're trying to do we're trying to kind of you know pull everyone into a much larger boats and not kind of throw anyone overboard and so that's why we've taken the approach that we have so we think that you can still have a decent experience in support multiple protocols at the same. Manu Sporny: Time and. Manu Sporny: At least that's what we're seeing our customers ask us for because they are being lobbied by all kinds of different people saying that X is going to win and why is going to win and what that does is it pushes them into a position where they're like I don't know who's telling the truth and who's lying and so the only way I can mitigate against that risk those risks is to just support everything that's it. <orie> just assume everyone is lieing... problem solved. Mike Prorock: Thanks so much I definitely what I would say recommendation wise is just post to the list I'm sure someone will paste it in the chat if I don't get to it before them but definitely you know posted a list saying here's what I'm thinking about that's usually the best way to go ahead and get a conversation started around specifics and then getting directed and narrowed in so hopefully that's helpful we're seeing a lot of wallet activity as you can imagine especially between. Mike Prorock: Tween us VIP. Mike Prorock: Going out and a lot of European stuff going on etcetera so it's going to be a really that side is going to be really exciting as is honestly like your system to system non-human and loop cases are blowing up right now right so it's going to be very very interesting to see where this all goes. Mike Prorock: Man who happily switch topics. Mike Prorock: Might be muted man. Manu Sporny: I'm sorry I was totally on me yes moving on to something else pulling the community full on the work items that were currently working on just to see like where do people want us to focus on getting that same poll out to everyone else you know dif ITF you know ccg whatever it's just an open pole what technologies are missing like you know is the work we're doing on. <dmitri_zagidulin> heh heh how does CCG feel about hosting a did:web 2.0 DID Method work item? Manu Sporny: Hours in verifiers should we focus on that should we focus on render method like getting kind of a ranking priority ordering from people I think would be helpful based on the number of work items that we're on is that something the chairs are like considering what you like do we want to do that. Mike Prorock: Certainly considering we're definitely having background conversations on that honestly some of it and I know there's a number of folks who are on some of these lists and we're at 117 but like with the identity discuss side and I think there's some of the let's wait and see for a week or two what's going on at ietf on this topic because as that group solidifies a little bit that's going to really help us understand what needs incubation what needs kind of pretest before stuff goes over to you know. Mike Prorock: Or you know let me know possibly moves up and w3c to a specific working group etcetera so I think that's kind of where we're at on that side because stuff is I definitely I think definitely a little bit in flux right where is all of this going to land I don't know if that makes sense man in but that's kind of my my sense of being you know from you know being engaged across ITF and to a degree in difference. Mike Prorock: And others and certainly here at w3c is just. Mike Prorock: You know what the future is feels very very nebulous and some of that is because is because there is a lot of confusion right in the space. Mike Prorock: Now as far as infrastructure definitely I'm Manu I am happy to float I know you've had some thoughts on the YouTube site I don't know if you want to discuss that and maybe we could take a poll on that before we close the meeting on today. Mike Prorock: Totally yep float. Manu Sporny: Sure I was waiting on the chairs to to be at be okay with having that conversation um so you're good Mike Harrison Kimberly on okay alright so over the past couple of months Nick who's new to the community volunteered to take all of our meetings since 2014 and. Manu Sporny: Put them out on YouTube. Manu Sporny: Put a bow. Manu Sporny: On a you know on a Channel with summaries Auto transcription all that kind of stuff in to effectively take our infrastructure and automated more so now we finally got to the point where we didn't need to pick scribes for every single meeting and granted the transcriptions or of questionable quality but based on the new stuff coming out with like Chad GPT and and barred and things like that. Manu Sporny: You can get some pretty. Manu Sporny: Good meeting summaries in simplifications of the transcription so we've been playing around with that for the past couple of months Nick specifically has taken all of the recordings that we have for the past two years and he has written a bunch of infrastructure that will auto upload them to YouTube channel so specifically what happens is it will take the raw video that's being recorded. Manu Sporny: Run it through whisper which is a local transcription tool so that's not being uploaded to Google or anyone else and then it will use something like chat GPT to read through the transcript and summarize it in a paragraph in that auto summarization goes in the summary that's posted to YouTube so that's working today but we didn't want the flip the switch for that on because it raises a whole bunch of. Manu Sporny: Questions around. Manu Sporny: People are okay with video being uploaded to YouTube so you know YouTube's proprietary we've had a number of people say don't use a proprietary system to do that whisper is local only so you know we're not uploading the video to be you know used in training models for you know these organizations but of course the second the transcription goes out to chat GPT Chachi pts learning off of it in the second. Manu Sporny: We upload the video to. Manu Sporny: Google is using it to train barred right so that's the world we live in today just to be clear we have been in that world for a while we publish our transcripts to the web we publish our video and audio to the web it is on a server that the community controls but chat GPT is you know crawling the web as is barred and everything else crawls the web and learns from anything that it can get. Manu Sporny: Access to. Manu Sporny: So the question was do we want to make it easier for people to find our content and watch our videos and you know how comfortable are we with auto summarization and things of that nature we will clearly not take any action until we have like. Manu Sporny: You know some kind of consent from the community so that that's that's kind of where we are now I don't know if anyone has any thoughts they'd like to share on on that on enabling that feature. Mike Prorock: Are watching the queue for any comments here. Mike Prorock: And if we. <wendy_seltzer> Do you ever get people requesting off-the-record status in these meetings? <harrison_tang> I definitely support it Mike Prorock: See no comments man if I would say definitely let's get a draft proposal and maybe get it out to the list or something like that around that my inclination is a chair and I can let I think both Kimberly and Harrison are all and is that this would be highly desirable and in as when he is noting right in the rare event that does it does happen we do occasionally get folks that request off the Record right we've had that from the particularly from. Mike Prorock: The Advisory board w3c and some others because sometimes just can't. <phil_t3> A survey to the CCG membership (pointer to a form listing the projects and ranking) would be great. Could always use Google Forms for that ;-) <orie> pretty consistently its requested by representatives from large companies Mike Prorock: We just need to make sure that there's a provision to prevent that from going up and because I think that's a very fair and respectful item to ensure we have covered many. Manu Sporny: Yes that's an excellent question so Wendy we do have people request off the Record in when that has happened here it happens very rarely we just turn recording off and once we turn recording off it shuts everything else that I talked about off right so it is possible for us to have meetings that are off the Record what we can't do easily is. Manu Sporny: Is stop the video recording and. Manu Sporny: Description just for a short period of time we just don't support that right now unfortunately and the tooling just doesn't support it like nothing that we're talking about is set up to do that so. Manu Sporny: It is. Manu Sporny: Possible for us. <wendy_seltzer> Thanks Manu Sporny: Also not record the meeting but turn transcription on and then turn transcription off when people don't want what they you know what they're going to say said but again like it happens so rarely in these in these meetings that I don't think it's been a heavy demand from the community so yes we can do you know off the Record meetings entire meetings you just stop recording and you turn the transcription off. Manu Sporny: Says it shut off at that point but it kind of goes counter to our desire to be as open and transparent as possible about the things that go on in all of the meetings and task forces that we have in ccg I hope that helped. Mike Prorock: I think so take a look at some seen a thanks from Wendy there I saw Harrison say he's definitely a thumbs up on this Kimberly it may have flown by in the chat. Kimberly Linson: No I didn't say it in the chat but I am definitely on board as well. Mike Prorock: Okay awesome so yes I think me and who I think your answer to that is yeah cheers definitely in favor I think the reality of the world we live in is if we're posting public meetings especially the GitHub I mean that's being sucked into many many things right so but it's so as long as we have that ability to redact things and prevent things from going out in the event that something is not recorded I think that's the question Kaleo. Kaliya Young: Okay ignore me. <orie> as long as the AI gets the copyright to the summarized content : ) <harrison_tang> ;( Kaliya Young: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j_RWhWjOYevTdmMorZkEPcu0c4r7MVTBu1RRxd35NmM/edit#heading=h.sxnoxpflg1dm Kaliya Young: Advanced work and I took which toxins okay I put that out on this little while ago and met and it announcements but maybe have a little bit of a discussion which is a memorial for IW W the community around it w to this group of a part of the only part someone kind of came in and ordered a rear suspension order of look looked up and said I'll order. Kaliya Young: Well I'm just. Kaliya Young: Anybody here on this list and who I'm looking volunteers to take on if you have have it in read it one of the people on the list I paragraph for our a like I don't want to attempt a New York Times right up above the DIY are you know something to kind of condense it into a paragraph or two so that's what I'm putting out back in Port and getting this together a community. Kaliya Young: So on. Manu Sporny: +1 To the concept and the idea -- how can we help? Mike Prorock: Seeing definitely plus ones and I see man asking like how we can help I think the main thing is is go take a look see if you know folks in the community that have passed Etc please do make sure that you know you get the that over to Cole are into the dock so that we can add them in and then I think clear you were looking explicitly for is their thoughts on how we can digitally display this in a good usable way that's actually meaningful and respectful folks not sure. Mike Prorock: Oh cool okay. Kaliya Young: So we're going to actually get out hey John II but you some sites going to be like I'm more have that Messiah but what I would support in so I ought the only more right if people that are razor and then going oh I'll read about bomb again hit her forearm Rampage basement I put link if you look at documents you there's links to various Memorial of people sort of like not you know like a little. Kaliya Young: You know taken our you did. Mike Prorock: +1 Kaliya Young: Person right or graph I guess we eat is that cpgs days anyways the clear. <harrison_tang> + 1 on ChatGPT Mike Prorock: That is definitely clear at least to me so no definitely appreciate the ask and you know not always a pleasant topic but I think it's something especially given the last couple of years of interesting Global pandemics and things like that it's a really great thing to do and we've been losing a lot of great folks lately unfortunately in the tech world so all right well we're rolling up towards the end top of the hour here I'm going to watch the key for another 30. Mike Prorock: Seconds just in case there's any you know last postings out. <harrison_tang> for Spokeo scholarship, we used ChatGPT to help screen applicants. It works pretty well <kaliya_identitywoman> ok Harrison you can take one person on and leverage chatgpt to help you :) Mike Prorock: We will say Happy Tuesday to everyone and say this was a wonderful meeting appreciate all the engagement man you look forward to more interesting things to come and as always and definitely from the rest of the community as well because I think there's a lot of it being very very interesting stuff going on I will note if you're not only identity discuss list over at ITF definitely hop on there if you. Mike Prorock: I've got a technical background. <brian_richter> link? <harrison_tang> haha, sure, ping me via email. i'll find someone to help Mike Prorock: Even if you have a non-technical background just a business background but bear in mind that ietf is a little different that w3c so so definitely read towel by Kiev if you're new to ipf let me pull up that Brian I'll pull up the link to Identity discussed and posted them. Mike Prorock: And that list is hiding somewhere. Mike Prorock: https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/ <brian_richter> thanks Mike Prorock: I'll have to dig it you can go find it on the lists like though so if you're not familiar with ATF you can go there so with that Harrison probably good to stop recording stop transcribers Etc and thanks all and we'll see you all next week. <bblfish> bye
Received on Tuesday, 22 August 2023 18:33:15 UTC