[MINUTES] W3C CCG Verifiable Credentials API Call - 2023-04-04

Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!

The transcript for the call is now available here:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:


VC API Task Force Transcript for 2023-04-04

  1. Relevant Community Updates
  2. Review VC API Presentation to OWF
  Manu Sporny
  Our Robot Overlords
  Manu Sporny, Patrick (IDLab), Dave Longley, Alan Karp, Greg 
  Bernstein, Tom S, John Henderson, Dmitri Zagidulin, John Kuo, 
  TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) (OpenLinkSw.com), Joe Andrieu, 
  Patrick St-Louis

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Manu Sporny:   Welcome everyone this is the verifiable 
  credentials API work item call this is Tuesday April 4th 2023.
Manu Sporny:  At the third like the agenda said thank you Alan 
  for catching that our agenda.
Manu Sporny:  It's here on the agenda today we have a review of 
  the VC API presentation that John Henderson has put together for 
  the open Wallet Foundation we've got an issue called why do we 
  believe it's a good idea to return an issue credential to an 
  internal caller if you 48 and then we have an Aussie discussion.
Manu Sporny:  Hoping we can close after more than a year of work 
  on trying to answer the question on whether or not exchange and 
  points need all to see or not and then of course other issues as 
  time permits any other updates or changes to the agenda anything 
  else we should discuss today.
Manu Sporny:  K and then looking through the list of people that 
  are here it's The Usual Suspects that we all know each other so 
  I'm going to skip introductions any relevant Community updates.

Topic: Relevant Community Updates

Manu Sporny:  The only thing I think that might be worth 
  mentioning I think we mentioned last week which is which is 
  there's probably going to be a multi-format working group mini 
  working group at the ietf and there's mailing list for that check 
  the minutes from last week for where to sign up for that mailing 
  list the other heads up is that I think the verifiable 
  credentials working group that's working on 20.
Manu Sporny:   Is going to.
Manu Sporny:  Fairly aggressive with.
Manu Sporny:  I won't say cutting features but making sure people 
  are assigned to features and if people aren't assigned the 
  features people should have the expectation that those features 
  are not going to get done and not going to make progress and 
  they're not going to go into Canada track which means that by 
  mid-summer we will see a bunch of hopeful features that we had 
  for 20 get cut so if you care about specific features in the.
Manu Sporny:   Bible credential to.
Manu Sporny:  And there's an issue raised for that feature and 
  there's no one assigned for it either assign yourself or say 
  bye-bye to that feature once you know we get halfway through the 
  summer so you know the chairs are going to give everyone a good 
  heads-up multi-month heads up on that but but that's coming.
Manu Sporny:  I think that's it for Relevant Community updates 
  anyone have anything else before we jump into the VC API 
  presentation that John is put together.

Topic: Review VC API Presentation to OWF

Manu Sporny: https://speakerdeck.com/jhenderson/vc-api-at-owf
Manu Sporny:  Okay well with that John volunteered a number of 
  weeks ago to put together a presentation deck for the BC API 
  presentation to the open Wallet Foundation I will put the link to 
  that deck in the minutes here and thanks to John for putting that 
  together and over to you John please take us take us through the 
  you have right now please.
John Henderson:  Okay will do thank you everyone in advance for 
  giving me the opportunity to share this work I'm going to.
John Henderson:  And then share my screen okay I was at work okay 
  great so.
John Henderson:  Maybe a bit of a preamble on the open world 
  Foundation I've said this before but in case anyone's mr. or 
  needs a refresher so the open wall Foundation is an organization 
  that is implementing wallet components they're not working on 
John Henderson:   And they have.
John Henderson:  A technical architecture committee that is 
  looking for project proposals and myself at energy web we believe 
  that there's opportunity for a VC API implementation of some sort 
  or at least that is worth considering so this is step one in that 
  process is to educate the Open Lord Foundation or at least share 
  knowledge on this API.
John Henderson:   So with that I will get into the.
John Henderson:  And right so what I'm thinking of doing here is.
John Henderson:  To deliver the presentation not exactly as I 
  would to the open world Foundation but kind of talking about what 
  I will say to the over what I thinking of saying the open wall 
  Foundation which I propose to say and if there's I would suggest 
  if there's any feedback please chime in at any point and I can 
  note that down and we can make changes I've also been 
  workshopping idea and I think it's been mentioned.
John Henderson:   Before that having other people at the 
  presentation from the piece.
John Henderson:  Nearly there be very valuable so if there's any 
  sections in the presentation that people think they could deliver 
  well it could add to or if there's additional sections that 
  people would like to deliver I'm certainly open to that as well 
  please chime in with those suggestions but with that let me get 
  into the agenda here so the topics are a bit of intro motivation 
  is presentations and background on the VC API.
John Henderson:   Discussing the design the use case.
John Henderson:  Is the design Jack gives the roles architecture 
  authorization basically all the sections from the start of the 
  speck that they were all familiar with and then talking about the 
  end points themselves and I'm going to intersperse discussion of 
  the endpoints with the little demo using the energy web 
John Henderson:   And at the end of.
John Henderson:  Read about test Suites.
John Henderson:  So bad about myself I'm a while in particular 
  for this kind of work I'm wearing a software architect at and 
  energy web and I have in focusing on the SSI stack for a couple 
  of years now energy web and and you rub along with Leah Group 
  which is a transmission system operator in Belgium and Germany 
  we've implemented.
John Henderson:   It V Capi.
John Henderson:  Like I mentioned previously this presentation 
  the objective is to get easy API into the sphere of attention of 
  the open wall Foundation community and like Isis in particular 
  the technical architecture folks and this is because energy web 
  is interested in contributing some portion of BC API where it 
  makes sense for open world foundation and I believe that these 
  API is important for the open world.
John Henderson:   Foundation because it.
John Henderson:  Is a shared interface for BC lifecycle 
  management well we'll talk about what that means but I would say 
  at a high level it's interacting and modifying VCS within a role 
  domain and between will domains get into that.
John Henderson:  Before we talk about the architecture and rules 
  a bit of background so what we talked about the VC lifecycle bit 
  and as we all know on this call it's a ccg work item it's a 
  diversion 0.3 the timeline I would be interested if anyone has 
  any feedback on this I joined in the VC API Community after it 
  started which I believe was in 2020 and I pulled this.
John Henderson:   Abstract Target.
John Henderson:  24 From the profile data standards roadmap yeah 
  go ahead menu.
Manu Sporny:  Yeah I mean I think we you know it's undetermined I 
  think we're in a state where we're like it's going to be done 
  when it's done right so whenever we as a group decide like hey we 
  like you know where it is right now and we feel like it's ready 
  to go standards track we can do that in 2024 seems like a like 
  you know sure yeah it could probably be ready to go standards 
  track B then but it's largely you know up to this group I think 
  one of the.
Manu Sporny:   Things we might want to highlight is we don't.
Manu Sporny:  We let me see throw the statement out there and see 
  if people disagree or agree we don't feel that there is a rush to 
  get this thing done in standardized we want to take our time and 
  do it right in in you know we don't see us taking our time and 
  doing it right as slowing this thing down you know in the market 
  right so we there are already production deployments of these 
Manu Sporny:   In production use cases.
Manu Sporny:  You know those those implementations don't seem to 
  be bothered by the rate at which were we're going right now so if 
  I had to summarize I'd suggest that but I don't know if people 
  you know disagree with that so if you object the kind of like 
  that framing please speak up would love to hear other thoughts on 
  the matter.
Dave Longley:  Yes I'm generally behind that other than the idea 
  that once something escapes into the wild and takes takes gets a 
  lot of uptake it can become solidified and and hard to change and 
  these things that we say we want to do right might be really hard 
  for us to change and we might end up with two different protocols 
  out there with the one that ends up getting standardized that 
  might not be what is in use in some Productions.
Dave Longley:   Systems and that can be an.
John Henderson:  Okay yeah thanks how many reindeer I'll add a 
  bit of.
John Henderson:  Of that perspective to the slide as well.
John Henderson:  Moving along I briefly I'm going to touch on the 
  use cases this is just to say that the several areas of user 
  needs that have been compiled by folks on this call and that 
  there's some local use cases and for example the multi-state 
  presentation one.
John Henderson:   This is.
John Henderson:  My view and even mg web in a use case is kind of 
  the energy space so this you see it bi is useful going to be on 
  and it was shown here.
John Henderson:  Continue along here to the design objectives.
Manu Sporny:  Just to go back to the last slide is the 
  traceability stuff on there that's a pretty important one as well 
  I imagine it is but I couldn't.
Manu Sporny:  And in quickly.
Manu Sporny:  Yeah I'm not seeing like supply chain on there in 
  that might be missing just to note as Eric.
Manu Sporny:  Thoughts on that.
Manu Sporny:  Patrick you're on the Queue go ahead.
Manu Sporny:  And if you're talking Patrick we can't hear you.
Manu Sporny:  Still no audio Patrick um okay well justjust to 
  know John we might want to mention the supply chain use cases 
  here as well as possible go ahead Patrick.
Manu Sporny:  There we are we can hear you.
Patrick St-Louis:  To do a little brown swap Chrome to the rescue 
  when you say you don't see supply chain on there isn't supply 
  chain sort of implied and some of these use cases like for 
Patrick St-Louis:  Hello online pharmacy would end there be 
  implied supply chain in there.
Manu Sporny:  It there's an implied 1 but I think if you look at 
  the use cases document I don't think it has to do with supply 
  chain the reason I bring it up is because we have like a whole 
  other work group like us that's just focused on traceability 
  right the traceability work item and they utilize the VC API and 
  I was just mentioned and it feels like a problem domain unto 
  itself they work with like US Customs and Border Protection and.
Manu Sporny:   Imports of.
Manu Sporny:  Trillions of dollars of product into the United 
  States in I don't I guess we don't have that problem domain 
  listed here so just a minute you know note to like Eric that 
  maybe we want to add that here that's it.
John Henderson:  Okay yeah thanks that's a good point.
Joe Andrieu:  Plus one to that mandate to the traceability guys 
  have their own use case document floating around somewhere.
Manu Sporny:  I don't know I don't think they do I think their 
  use cases might be in their vocabulary document maybe that's what 
  they're doing I don't know it's a short answer.
Manu Sporny: 
John Henderson:  Yeah again yeah thanks for that that feedback 
  and this next slide on the design objectives is from the again 
  from the spec so talking about the four objectives of modularity 
  Simplicity composability and extensibility and I pulled these 
  icons and they'll show up in layabouts the presentation.
John Henderson:  Star little bit quicker as I guess time is 
  flying by so looking at the rules.
John Henderson:  I think this slide is very important in my view 
  for my understanding of you see API because it talks about the 
  roles that are familiar to many in the SSI ecosystem of issuer 
  verifier and older but this will split I think is an Innovative 
  concept that we see API provides so I'll discuss that and I think 
  the key point that I understand is that the service is.
John Henderson:  Architectural feature that has been noticed and 
  so separating the business logic from the verifiable credential 
  Services as has resulted in this rule split and then this other 
  bit here is talking about how the holder this language about how 
  the holder could be seen as a wallet the while it is may be 
  overloaded term but as the presentation is for the open.
John Henderson:   World Foundation the perhaps.
John Henderson:  It's of particular interest to them.
Manu Sporny:  We've got a q John in don't worry about like if 
  this takes the whole call it takes the whole call I think we're 
  all here to provide feedback to you so so don't worry about 
  having to rush through it Patrick I don't know if that's an old Q 
  or not.
Patrick St-Louis:  Yeah that's probably an old cue.
Manu Sporny:  Okay go ahead Ted.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): He's the 
  quick one subject should probably be like a shadow icon because 
  while it's wireless integral to the internals of the VC it is not 
  a part of me Capi.
Manu Sporny:  Yeah plus 12 that the the other thought I have here 
  is that it might confuse people to have the little person icon 
  for issuer service and issuer coordinator those are really kind 
  of at least I think of them as like sub systems or systems that 
  are operating on behalf of the issuer so using a little person 
  icon for the issuer I think makes sense and then using a I don't 
  know Joe help me like a computer or a something for issue or 
  service or issue.
Manu Sporny:   Or coordinator might be better maybe.
Joe Andrieu:  Yeah I think that's right I mean the.
Joe Andrieu:  My other note here would be to maybe make it 
  symmetric radially rather than left to right so that the 
  coordinators are close to each other and the services are on the 
  outside but yeah some other icon for both the coordinator and 
  service I think would be useful.
Joe Andrieu:  But probably different one I don't know if they 
  need to be different ones but certainly different from a human.
Manu Sporny:  Thanks Joe Dave Europe.
Dave Longley:  Yeah I agree with those comments generally I was 
  thinking more of these that make we kind of have a completion 
  your roles and components but there's also some some strength to 
  somehow doing a better job of communicating that the individual 
  components like these Services might be provided by a third party 
  and I know if you just break them out as components people could 
  fit perhaps figured that out on.
Dave Longley:   In their own butt.
<joe_andrieu> Traceability Use Cases 
Dave Longley:  Concept or being able to see that this API enables 
  different people to work together to build different pieces that 
  and that they can contribute to an issuer is helpful.
Manu Sporny:  Go ahead Patrick.
Patrick St-Louis:  No problem the same.
Patrick St-Louis:  A wave of changing the icons maybe I would 
  change the icon of the subject because it might not always be a 
Manu Sporny:  All good points.
Manu Sporny:  He thought we'd have so many opinions and 
  iconography back over to you John.
John Henderson:  Thanks a lot thanks again for the feedback 
  that's some improvements here for sure is I pulled that diagram 
  from the use cases document and there is this other diagram 
  figure that uses bigger but that splits into boxes rather than 
  people so maybe that addresses one of the concerns that it's 
  confusing to have.
John Henderson:  Yeah I think moving really move along to the 
  next slide it does have more of that some other diagram that has 
  the radio perspective from the BCP is back so this guy want to 
  spend quite a bit of time on this slide while least in the actual 
  presentation because I think it's it's key it shows the 
  separation between service and coordinator that was discussed in 
John Henderson:   Previous slide and also introduces.
John Henderson:  They're interesting components such as the admin 
  and and storage Services there's a couple notes in the text in 
  the specification say about the issue of service saying that it 
  should have access to keys or that the verifier service.
John Henderson:  The authenticity and time stamps of the 
  credential but the business logic is left to the verifier 
  coordinator I supposed to get generally that's a line of 
  Separation as I see between the services and the coordinators is 
  that the coordinators have the business logic.
John Henderson:   And and it.
John Henderson:  With other other back ends as well.
John Henderson:  And then a point I wanted to make in this slide 
  as well is that I see there potentially being use of the 
  modularity design principle and this architecture where you could 
  use VC API to send VCS I've said between domains here 
  communication between the coordinators but you can also use be 
  Capi to operate on VCS some of that lifecycle management.
John Henderson:  Within a single ruler single two of you system.
John Henderson:  Yeah please manner.
Manu Sporny:  Yeah I love how you have I mean you know it I love 
  that the diagram so the fact that you've circled the domains and 
  it's like there's a clear separation the second I saw this died 
  you know the second I saw this slide I was like yes that is 
  exactly why we should convey that so thank you for doing that the 
  one and I'm and and now to nitpick on it right and so like the 
Manu Sporny:   Domains the check verifiable credential state 
Manu Sporny:  Line should probably.
Manu Sporny:  Check verifiable Prudential State I think that is 
  between domains has as well yeah and of course it's going to be 
  difficult to do that like anyway so but I thought that this is 
  great because it really demonstrates what we've been trying to 
  convey which is some of these apis you were use within a domain 
  and some of them use between domains so plus one to that.
Manu Sporny:   Dave you're on the Queue and then Joe.
Dave Longley:  Yeah something that may or may not come up during 
  the owf presentation is there might be people that are there that 
  are familiar with oid for VC and oid for BP and they may be 
  asking questions around what are the differences between the VC 
  API in that one or you know how do they relate and this diagram 
  might be somewhat useful in answering that question by talking 
  about how those other ones specifically focus on between domains 
  and the BC API Works in.
Dave Longley:   Both of those places.
Dave Longley:  Even be integrated with those other systems for 
  the between some of the between donation domain communication.
Manu Sporny:  Go ahead Joe.
Manu Sporny: +1 To Dave
Joe Andrieu:  One of my favorite phrases from William Gibson is 
  at the Futures already invented it's just not evenly distributed 
  there is a future where this diagram has an exchange service or 
  an exchanger in it but we haven't done that yet or figure it out.
Joe Andrieu:   The edge cases of.
Joe Andrieu:  So I think I just want to note that I don't know 
  Dave or man if you guys want to come and I think I think it would 
  be premature to try and get it into this presentation but just to 
  socialize amongst us I do think there is another component that 
  is an exchanger that's at least the issuer in verifier are 
  probably going to deserve and their box and I'll let that go.
Manu Sporny:  Okay thanks Joe Patrick.
Patrick St-Louis:  Yeah there was a term I think Dave said it a 
  couple of times I think he referred to it as trust boundaries 
  would that be correlating to the different domains like different 
  domains are different trust boundaries and if so be so good term 
  I like it.
Dave Longley:  Just quickly yes Patrick and I think this helps 
  visualize where those boundaries are the other point I was going 
  to make is yes we don't have exchanges on here yet and I do think 
  it would be a bit of a rush to try and get it in here now but if 
  it does come up and there's something to talk about we can talk 
  about how this diagram at least partially the place where 
  exchanges would happen in this diagram now would be where 
  verifiable credentials are being received or present it so the.
Dave Longley:   The arrows.
Dave Longley:  In within those within the the lower arrows in the 
  between domains Circle between the holder and verifier and issuer 
  and holder and so that could at least be answered if there comes 
  up as a question during the presentation.
Manu Sporny:  All right back over to you John.
John Henderson:  Great a thank you thanks again for the comments 
  and feedback I think that's like Converse this slide so exercises 
  to briefed on authorization I don't personally have much to say 
  and maybe it's not worth having such a slide but I think my 
  purpose here is to say that authorization is within the scope of 
  you see API and that oauth 2 is explicitly mentioned other.
John Henderson:   Is are allowed.
John Henderson:  An explicit for baiting of long-lived 
  credentials like username and password basic HTTP authorization.
John Henderson:  So that gets us through the design section of 
  the presentation and into a discussion of the endpoints so the 
  first section is on issuance and points and I've got a few so 
  I'll just skip ahead just going to shows there's a few sections 
  on the various endpoints it's having made these tables exhaustive 
  they don't have every endpoint but more to give a sense of some 
  of the key and points.
Manu Sporny:  I think it's a good thing that you don't have every 
  endpoint on here I totally agree with the way you're choosing to 
  present it which is give them and give them an idea of what's in 
  there it doesn't need to be exhaustive it's a plus one to the 
  approach you're taking.
John Henderson:  Okay that's good to know that thank you.
John Henderson:  Quite so talking more about the issue its 
  endpoints are actually maybe to introduce this table so what I've 
  done here is take the from that one discussion that was maybe not 
  sure a couple months ago maybe those it is an attempt to put the 
  endpoints on the various components and list the expected callers 
  so I've.
Manu Sporny: +1 A good assumption to make
<manu_sporny> it's the closest we have to consensus now :)
John Henderson:  Information is still still relevant even though 
  it's not in the spec as of yet I don't think but I think it does 
  help understand the endpoints so I've with focusing on issuance 
  now so the probably the most important point is this issuance of 
  a credential and.
John Henderson:  Yeah I'd like to do a little demo that so I 
John Henderson:  Go over to.
John Henderson:  We've got yeah we should have time so I yeah 
  I'll run through my demo was planned here so the first step of 
  that is yet use this credentials issue and point I'm running the 
  energy web implementation locally.
John Henderson:  Yeah let me go over I've got a.
John Henderson:  Ready here that I will copy.
John Henderson:  It's been so it's a permanent it's a permanent 
  resident card credential and.
John Henderson:  The point that I want to make about the the 
  issue and point is that there was a discussion a little while 
  back now about reducing the client optionality for the issue and 
  point so it's not necessary to at one point was possible to 
  specify the verification method but it's not currently possible 
  and I see that as an example of Simplicity of the Simplicity 
  design principle.
John Henderson:  Yeah please go ahead.
Patrick St-Louis:  Just wanted to know like is it forbidden or is 
  it optional I forgot where the decision was made about this.
Dave Longley:  So it should be forbidden it should be based on 
  the configuration of the particular issuer instance you're 
  communicating with.
John Henderson:  Yeah so like I said not specifying here and I 
  don't think we can specify no limitation anyway yeah let's let's 
  go and we end up with.
John Henderson:  This permanent resident card credential with the 
  the proof.
John Henderson:  Okay don't have too much to say about the this 
  other status and point folks on the call will know well but it's 
  to update the status of a credential on the status service so 
  within the issue a domain and this is also this get credentials 
  within the issue domain where an issue coordinator could say list 
  all the credentials that have been issued at least that's my 
John Henderson:  So that takes us to verification.
John Henderson:  Will flip over to well actually maybe I'll just 
  point out that the these two endpoints there's presentation 
  verify credentials verified both on the verification service and 
  called by the verification coordinator I will quickly do a demo 
  of the.
John Henderson:  An important when we.
John Henderson:  This gradual that was just issued.
John Henderson:  Okay thank you.
John Henderson:  And this might not sure if this is the right 
  reply but yet it's if this this replies in this back but it's 
  saying that the proof has been checked.
John Henderson:  Okay that's it for verification nice and short 
  there and then we get to presentation so the presentation section 
  I'm going to do in tandem with the exchange section because the 
  presentation is done in response to an exchange so.
John Henderson:  But I'll talk about presentation for a bit so 
  the presentation were we're looking at and points on the issuer 
  and holder services and coordinators and here where it's more on 
  the Imports on the holder service and the caller's the holder 
  coordinator so there's an endpoint.
John Henderson:   For driving.
John Henderson:  Controls for example for BBS credentials for 
  proving a credential for applying a proof to soive approving a 
  presentation shoulder demo up and then this other important that 
  I've added is for getting a presentation and potentially it could 
  be on the bear for verifier coordinator and I called it out 
  because it could be useful for asynchronous flows and that's an 
  example of the composability principle of composing.
John Henderson:   These complex flows from.
John Henderson:  How many points.
John Henderson:  And so before I demo that like I said let's go 
  over and continue with exchange and points so and.
John Henderson:   The key endpoint here.
John Henderson:  Just posting to this exchange and point which is 
  done by.
John Henderson:  Traffic so I won't let this baby this is 
John Henderson:  I think it should be the other way around where 
  they hold their coordinator with wood.
John Henderson:  Be a collar and it could be on the issue or the 
  rarefied coordinator.
Dave Longley: +1 To that being backwards
<manu_sporny> ^ yep
John Henderson:  An interesting note is that you're potentially 
  do some point hopefully doesn't need authorization and some of 
  you some use of the design principles here is that.
John Henderson:  This changes are extensible via the verifiable 
  presentation request format so I'll talk about that in a minute 
  and also composable the multi-step flow so I mentioned that being 
  one of the focal use cases and so it's it's the possible using 
  the exchanges and point.
John Henderson:  I think it's helpful to before doing the demo to 
  talk about what the verifiable presentation request is so it's a 
  it's a related specification to be Capi least it's it's.
John Henderson:  And then you see API where you have I mean every 
  on this calls for know you so I don't spend too much time but the 
  they're getting the key point I want to highlight for the award 
  Foundation is that this interact well really this extension 
  points in the query as well but in the interactors and extension 
  point where there's these different interact types so you can 
  imagine extending into other interaction types Beyond you Capi 
  exchanges and also others can be added.
Dave Longley:  Yeah I think in the bullet points there you should 
  probably put oid for BC.
John Henderson:  Yeah good idea yes.
John Henderson:  That's great point.
John Henderson:  Yeah that yeah thanks for that point that no 
  other questions I think I will roll into the one of the demo 
John Henderson:  That I've got.
John Henderson:  And exchange created actually let me just create 
  it on the demo screen.
John Henderson:  I actually saw before going into the demo let's 
  see one other other slide I have on not with the example exchange 
  flow and this is essentially what I'm going to be demoing so 
  there's this is a it will this figure you'll probably recognize 
  pulled its pulled from the spec or you have a holder coordinator 
  initiate an exchange and in a sponsor will be a verifiable 
  presentation request and then a VP will be sent.
John Henderson:   So yes.
John Henderson:  You know that sequence that I will show so I'll 
  start by initiating The Exchange which I believe is this one here 
  yeah so.
John Henderson:  3 When I've configured.
John Henderson:  And in response I have this.
John Henderson:  If you request this very enviable presentation 
  request so there's a query which energy well we've been using the 
  presentation definitions back to ask for credentials so it's 
  asking here for a permanent resident card credential which is the 
  gradual issued earlier and there's this challenge that I'll use 
  to prove a presentation and also interaction and point.
John Henderson:  Do the next step of proving the presentation 
John Henderson:   So that.
John Henderson:  The send it.
John Henderson:  Let me take the quiz station the potential for 
John Henderson:  It should go here.
John Henderson:  The whole everything else should be.
John Henderson:  Same except for the I've already used using the 
  same same older and verification method I do need to change that 
  but I need to change the challenge.
John Henderson:  Great John response we have a VP which we can.
John Henderson:  It so the final step of the demo is to go.
John Henderson:  Close small have it up to get behind in our 
  implementation there were still using the old put rather than 
  post introduced three I'll put the presentation here.
John Henderson:  Response I saw in the that that concludes the 
  demo and was in the diagram there was a presentation the 
  container credentials and here is just a response body.
John Henderson:   And what did that.
John Henderson:  Yes please go ahead if there's any feedback on 
  the demo I mean probably could be improved in terms of 
Manu Sporny:  Patrick you're on the queue.
Patrick St-Louis:  Yeah just regarding exchanged is the first 
  time I see some kind of demonstration of an exchange and it's 
  very interesting abstract question so you set the exchange ideas 
  value of three what does the three represent is it like a type of 
  exchange that someone can engage with and then the transaction ID 
  is like sort of Communication channel between two agents.
John Henderson:  My understanding is they're opaque especially to 
  the client so there's no real meaning at least I haven't 
  attributed them any meaning to these numbers strengths.
Patrick St-Louis:  So tell me like you put three but does that 
  mean that three is what I need to engage with if I want to do a 
  presentation exchange for example.
John Henderson:  Press over to the Q yeah.
Manu Sporny:  Got it Alan and then Dave go ahead Alan.
Alan Karp:  Yeah as someone who's not very familiar with this 
  stuff I found the demo to be just you know like a magic act with 
  without the excitement you have to consider that people don't 
  know what most of this stuff is which is me now if your audience 
  knows more about this than for ignore my comment.
Manu Sporny:  Thanks Alan Dave.
Dave Longley:  Yeah I agree a lot with what Alan said I don't 
  know how much for our benefit you were skipping whatever kind of 
  set up you might provide in before you run the demo and talk 
  about it but talking about a specific use case and what's going 
  on with that exchange I think would really help ground it for the 
  people that are watching even if they're not going to really 
  understand what the technical details are and to respond to 
  Patrick the way that we've implemented exchanges is.
Dave Longley:   There are exchangers.
Dave Longley:  Have IDs that hang off of them.
Dave Longley:  Mapped to specific flows are use cases that you 
  might work through and when you're on like a website and you want 
  to like pick up a USCIS permanent resident card the issue where 
  Coordinator would create a new exchange off of that Alpha the 
  exchanger that's for getting a USCIS card and then they would 
  give you that exchange with the with you know maybe then it won't 
  be the number three it'll be some random number on the end of the 
  URL I would hand that to you.
Dave Longley:   And then when you post to that URL it'll give you 
Dave Longley:  Present a verifiable presentation request for what 
  it is you must hand over in order to get a USCIS card permanent 
  resident card in response.
Patrick St-Louis:  And the transaction ID is just something 
  that's link between that specific exchange between you as a 
  holder and this issuer.
Dave Longley:  Yes yeah and and in our implementation we've 
  actually found we don't need to use the transaction ID but it 
  could be used to keep track of State we just keep track of that 
  internally as we walk people through exchanges.
Patrick St-Louis:  Yeah I do you could probably delegate that ID 
  to some field in the body to keep track of which exchange that 
Dave Longley:  Or the exchange itself could be stateful so each 
  time they make a post to the exchange it keeps track of what step 
  there on in what the you know and it might there might only be 
  one step but if it's a multiple step thing it could keep track of 
  where they are and return back to them either another 
  presentation request or the actual VP with the BCS in it that 
  they are trying to get.
John Henderson:  All right y'all thanks again for that feedback 
  yeah certainly agree the demo could use some work in that some 
  great feedback to try to ground it in a use case please.
Patrick St-Louis:  I think something at least for me and I think 
  it's probably a shared feeling maybe not with everyone but 
  something that was interesting to discuss was the whole part 
  about which endpoint can live on which component and two because 
  when I think about an API usually I'm thinking about okay there's 
  one server with these API roots and then it can do all this but 
  the this Vis API Founders and it's more providing.
Patrick St-Louis:   A choice of routes that you can Implement on.
Patrick St-Louis:  Eviscerate component to do a goal that I think 
  this is displayed by the the tables you had and when you talk 
  about modularity but I think it should be more emphasis should be 
  put on that maybe when you present the tables to say like to put 
  emphasis on the modularity meaning it's not like this one server 
  it's going to have all these roots implemented but it's almost 
  like a pick and choose approach.
Patrick St-Louis:  Does anyone resonate with that or.
<manu_sporny> yes, +1 Patrick -- we do want to call out "you can 
  pick and choose which bits you implement (and where)"
<tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(openlinksw.com)> Loose 
  Coupling, for the win
Dave Longley:  The president's a lot with me and I think it would 
  I was kind of trying to get at something related to that when we 
  were talking about iconography around how this API enables you to 
  pick and choose from different service providers because it's 
  modular and broken up in that way you can you could Implement all 
  these pieces on your own and run a whole system yourself or you 
  might pick and choose from different implementations or different 
  service providers that are giving you the different pieces and 
  they should all work together.
Dave Longley:   And it's the it.
Dave Longley:  The design in.
Dave Longley:  To happen so that there's interoperability and a 
  there can be a bigger ecosystem and more choice in in the pieces 
  that you pick and choose from.
<manu_sporny> ^ +1 to that
John Henderson:  Okay yeah I bet that's a good point how about a 
  size in the modularity I'll think about how that could be 
  emphasized but more.
John Henderson:  M that it that's it presentation-wise see here.
John Henderson:  No I spoke too soon yeah less so I thought.
Patrick St-Louis:  And my last question was about to test Suites 
  and imitation.
John Henderson:  All right so there's just a bit about the sweets 
  I actually I was thinking maybe it makes sense to go and.
John Henderson:  I show like wow and I will do now but yeah my 
  plan for the presentation is to just show the table that I'm sure 
  you've all seen in them and they rendered test Suite results and 
  I've got a point here about focusing on data Integrity proofs.
John Henderson:  Yeah maybe I should say but WT is mentioned I 
  would say that.
John Henderson:  And then I just a bit about implementation so 
  I've listed if anyone wants to highlight their implementation or.
John Henderson:  Add an additional implementation or something 
  like that please let me know but I provided a link to the energy 
  where I wanted as well.
Manu Sporny: 
Manu Sporny:  We might want to mention the jff plugfest results 
  specifically when you have a handful of implementations there but 
  we had you know like what was it 17 implementations or 17 
  different issuers right now I don't know how many different like 
  full-blown implementers there but there's some I put the slide 
  deck in the chat Channel you might want to pull some content.
Manu Sporny:   From that to demonstrate that.
Manu Sporny:  We've already get done interoperability testing on 
  on the stuff and demonstrated some level of interop there and you 
  know it's in any case like there's a we've got like really good 
  really good interop story already on it that's it.
John Henderson:  Okay great thank you yeah I would be good to 
  list as many as possible and without that really does close the 
  presentation thank you for giving me the opportunity to present 
Manu Sporny:  Treyton in thank you John again for putting this 
  together I think it's great and now we have we actually have a 
  presentation deck to talk about you know the stuff that we do 
  here so that's also very much appreciated sure a number of us are 
  going to want to kind of divide and conquer in other groups that 
  were involved with okay so I think you know next steps here John 
  or just if you coordinate with owf.
Manu Sporny:   F to get a date just.
Manu Sporny:  Let us know what the date is in the date and time 
  for the presentation and as many of us as can make it will 
  certainly show up in support you and then maybe it during the 
  next call we could talk about you know who wants to take what 
  section although I mean John I think you having a unified Voice 
  through the whole thing was a good thing so maybe what we could 
  do is just kind of say something supportive things while you're 
  going through the presentation at owf.
<john_kuo> Did we get a link to the presentation?  Sorry if I 
  missed it
Manu Sporny: https://speakerdeck.com/jhenderson/vc-api-at-owf
Manu Sporny:  Okay with that thanks again John we're at time in 
  so next week we will pick up on the agenda that we had today pick 
  back up on issues and process those linked to the agenda is here 
  I'll put it back in the chat Channel John quo.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Just a quick 
  note a possible shorthand for the modularity is to highlight 
  loose coupling basically that you pick the component that you 
  want to use from the bunch that have implemented the stuff and 
  they can interchange like Lego blocks for the various roles.
Manu Sporny:  Plus one do that alright with that that's the call 
  thank you everyone for the the input and feedback to John on the 
  deck today we will pick back up on issue processing next week 
  thanks again have a good one.

Received on Tuesday, 4 April 2023 20:03:12 UTC