W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-credentials@w3.org > September 2022

Re: Apple and Google's Mobile Document Request API

From: Kaliya Identity Woman <kaliya@identitywoman.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2022 13:35:22 -0700
Message-ID: <CANez3f7VKvA7_DPjffa3Mt=DVcnqi4Rr1BeUO3dG9+yM9CjOLA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
Cc: Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Orie Steele <orie@transmute.industries>, W3C Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>
And who is going to fund engaging with all these cute elite east coast
think tank things that now care about "digital public goods" - about our
work and efforts?


On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 1:32 PM Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
wrote:

> Standards as fundamental as DID and VC cannot solve societal problems
> unless they're part of a broader effort to support digital public goods:
> https://www.brookings.edu/research/can-open-source-technologies-support-open-societies/
>
>
> Adrian
>
> On Mon, Sep 5, 2022 at 3:59 PM Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Sep 3, 2022 at 2:10 PM Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
>> wrote:
>> > For instance, it doesn’t seem like the Web Payments work has taken the
>> world by storm.  Is that due to flaws in the playbook or flaws in the
>> underlying approach (or both)?  Or is my perception off, and it’s wildly
>> successful?
>>
>> As you said, Web Payments is not wildly successful today. The Payment
>> Request API and Payment Handler API have yet to reach REC status after
>> 7 years of Working Group activity -- Microsoft, Samsung, Mozilla, have
>> all decided to not implement it so far.
>>
>> We should keep in mind that failing to create a standard is of benefit
>> to the OS/browser platforms. Directing people through the Google Pay
>> and Apple Pay Apps because a wallet selection mechanism doesn't exist
>> in the browser constrains choice. It enables them to charge more basis
>> points (a percentage of revenue) on each transaction through their
>> native apps. Apple Wallet/Pay has a large market share for financial
>> transactions at the point of sale, again, there isn't much incentive
>> to open that payment channel up (proprietary Apple Pay / Google Pay at
>> the point of sale) to competition.
>>
>> > Can you also describe other times this playbook has been employed and
>> the outcomes?
>>
>> Variations of this playbook was/is (arguably) employed for Adobe Flash
>> / SVG, h.264/VP8, Encrypted Media Extensions, WebRTC, Web Payments,
>> FLOC, AMP, FedCM, mDL/mdoc/VCs... across W3C, IETF, ISO, etc. This is
>> not something that's isolated to W3C, in fact, spreading the
>> initiative between multiple standards bodies increases the chances of
>> its success (a failure to standardize). For example, ISO mDL + W3C
>> Mobile Document Request API almost ensures that most people will not
>> be able to engage at ISO in the same way they can engage at W3C.
>>
>> > One of the odd things to me about the proposed approach is that it’s
>> mDoc specific – rather than being credential-format independent.  Do we
>> have any insights into why that is?
>>
>> My experience has been that the typical argument used by the browser
>> vendors is: "Let's start small and focused, and generalize once we
>> have version 1.0 done." That, of course, rarely happens because
>> version 1.0 falters -- 'cause it's a trap. What's really needed, and
>> what CHAPI does, is create an arbitrary data format and protocol
>> agnostic pipe between two systems (web-to-web, app-to-web,
>> web-to-app). That is the desired end-state, IMHO, but the browser
>> vendors seem loath to create a group with such a broad remit.
>>
>> Web Payments -- "This is about registering payment instruments and
>> using those to pay. We don't deal with identity, or credentials, or
>> loyalty cards, or coupons, or anything else. This WG is just about
>> payment. Maybe we'll generalize this data sharing interface if we're
>> successful."
>>
>> FedCM -- "This work is about identity federation and login, we are
>> focused on removing 3rd party cookies as used for login. We don't deal
>> with credentials, or payments, or arbitrary data movement between
>> websites.  Maybe we'll generalize this data sharing interface if we're
>> successful."
>>
>> Mobile Document Request API -- "This work is about requesting and
>> presenting mDLs and, eventually, mdocs. We don't deal with any other
>> data format.  Maybe we'll generalize this data sharing interface if
>> we're successful."
>>
>> ... and so on. It's all a bit misguided. Yes, you want to focus on
>> critical use cases, but not to the detriment of a more generalized
>> solution. Unfortunately, we have multiple examples (above) of there
>> being a focus on point solutions rather than generalized solutions.
>> It's difficult to determine if this is being done on purpose, or by
>> accident. Given that many of the people advising this work have been
>> around at these large companies for 10-20 years, it's hard to believe
>> that this is all an accident that it keeps happening. :)
>>
>> -- manu
>>
>> --
>> Manu Sporny - https://www.linkedin.com/in/manusporny/
>> Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc.
>> News: Digital Bazaar Announces New Case Studies (2021)
>> https://www.digitalbazaar.com/
>>
>>
Received on Monday, 5 September 2022 20:35:47 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Monday, 5 September 2022 20:35:48 UTC