- From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
- Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2022 14:48:54 +0000
Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!
The transcript for the call is now available here:
https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2022-07-19/
Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:
https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2022-07-19/audio.ogg
----------------------------------------------------------------
W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference Transcript for 2022-07-19
Agenda:
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2022Jul/0048.html
Topics:
1. Announcements
2. VCWG Input Documents
3. Web5 - The Decentralized Web Platform
Resolutions:
1. Move forward with Final Community Group Specification
publications by the Work Item Editors and Transfer all input
documents listed in the VCWG 2.0 Charter to the VCWG
Organizer:
Heather Vescent, Mike Prorock, Kimberly Linson
Scribe:
Our Robot Overlords
Present:
Charles E. Lehner, Mike Prorock, Orie Steele, TallTed // Ted
Thibodeau (he/him) (OpenLinkSw.com), Ted Thibodeau, Will
Abramson, Marty Reed, Manu Sporny, Kimberly Linson, Daniel
Buchner, Harrison Tang, KM Gunnarsdottir (JFF), Simone Ravaoli,
Sharon Leu, Leo, Dmitri Zagidulin, Kerri Lemoie, Paul Fuxjäger,
Nate Otto, Erica Connell, BrentZ, Kayode Ezike, Jeff Orgel,
Annette@transmute.industries, Jon St. John, Snorre Lothar von
Gohren Edwin, Kaliya Young, Adrian , Rodolfo Miranda, Ryan Grant,
Heather Vescent, Shawn Butterfield, James Chartrand, Juan
Caballero, Jeff O - HumanOS, Juancho, Phil L (P1), David I. Lehn,
David Chadwick, Lance
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Mike Prorock: Welcome all to the community credentials group
meeting Tuesday July 19th there's going to be a fun announcement
up first followed by a quick matter of course related to VC
working group 2.0 maybe a few other announcements as well and the
main show today will be Daniel Buckner talking about their lovely
collection of Standards known as better than web 2 & 3.
Mike Prorock: https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/
Mike Prorock: I'm going to paste the agenda in the chat today or
the link to it there of just a quick note that this meeting is
covered under the code of ethics professional conduct for w3c
unfortunately we don't tend to have too many issues here with
that and yet one more note is that this is a public meeting and
anyone can participate in these calls but any contributions to
actual work items you must be a member of the ccg with IP our
agreement signed etc etc we do use jitsi chat as well as
tightened IRC I believe still to actually manage Q I think the
raise hand button is actually tied into the queue but otherwise
you could just type Q Plus to put yourself on the Queue please do
be mindful of time and other folks that are also queuing up you
can always type.
Mike Prorock: The question mark to see who's on the Q which
will.
Mike Prorock: Who several times during this meeting and q- to
pull yourself from the queue if your question was answered.
Topic: Announcements
Mike Prorock: Relying on the robot overlords and various NLP and
speech-to-text type items to scribe for us which is great with
that I am going to go ahead and make a first announcement which
is that the did press release the quit the press release for did
core is out and there are quite a few members of this community
that are quoted in that.
Manu Sporny:
https://www.w3.org/2022/07/pressrelease-did-rec.html.en
Mike Prorock: Obviously years of work from this community on
onward I was lucky enough to come in kind of towards the tail end
of that from a real active side and be able to engage on that and
consider myself quite fortunate to be able to engage with all the
fine people on that work item and really just really really
excited about that and thank you man of for posting the link out
to that press release so do do go ahead and amplify I think
there's big things - folks like Intel on that press release for
instance right this is this is a really good thing so with that
any other announcements before we move over to a matter of
processing related to the VC working group.
Mike Prorock: Check for that all right I am not saying anything
I believe Kalia actually dropped one or two items related to iaw
coming out on the list so just be able to look out for that kind
of stuff I think there's some you know kind of remote sessions or
hybrid type sessions coming up so just be on the lookout for that
kind of stuff.
Topic: VCWG Input Documents
Mike Prorock: That man you I'm going to put you on point to
describe the situation and then I'm going to actually put a
proposal out for folks that have not been around for this we're
going to take a we have a fun situation going basically the VC
working group has reformed as a 2.0 working group and there are a
list of input documents many of which were authored in the ccg
and are currently ccg work items.
Mike Prorock: We need to find out if there's any.
Mike Prorock: To passing control of those over to the VC working
group and then to process those according to the way the editors
and the chairs for those various work items as they change
ownership go so that's the topic for right now Manu do you want
to add any more context there.
Manu Sporny: https://w3c.github.io/vc-wg-charter/#deliverables
Manu Sporny: Sure happy to I'm going to drop a couple of links
in here just for the record so as Mike mentioned the verifiable
credentials working group Charter the new one that was adopted in
ratified in used to create the new verifiable credentials working
group has a set of deliverables as Mike also said those
deliverables include things like Json web signature 2020 in the
data Integrity work.
Manu Sporny: And Edwards curve in missed car.
Manu Sporny: Let's curves and all that kind of stuff this
community the credentials community group has been incubating
those documents part of the w3c process requires us to do
something called a final community group specification so that
basically means that we have been operating under a contributor
can contributor sorry a w3c community contributor license
agreement which basically.
Manu Sporny: Ali says.
Manu Sporny: https://www.w3.org/community/about/process/final/
Manu Sporny: None of us are going to hold the w3c or anyone
hostage with any of the ideas that we've contributed to the
specifications the so that's what we've been doing to this point
incubating these documents at the very end when we say okay we're
ready to hand this work over to an official w3c working group
there's a part of the process called making a final community
group specification.
Manu Sporny: Moment so I'm putting a URL link.
Manu Sporny: That there's a licensing agreement that goes along
with that that's very close to the the contributor licensing
agreement but basically anyone that feels that they have
contributed to the document or anyone identified as having
contribute to the document is expected to say yes I contributed
to the document and no I am not asserting any patent rights or
copyright or anything on the stuff that I contributed and yes I'm
okay with this document going over to.
Manu Sporny: To the.
Manu Sporny: The the official V CW G so the thing that we need
to do today is to publish these documents any input document to
the VC WG as a final community community group specification once
we do that then people can click a button that says I you know
I'm not making any patent.
Manu Sporny: Assertions on this document.
Manu Sporny: So I think I think that's that's it let me pause
there and see if there any questions before Mike you put that
proposal in the.
Mike Prorock: Yep I've got that proposal queued up and ready to
go and I'm watching the queue.
Marty Reed: Dad question once the work moves into the VC work
group then only members of w3c can contribute or augment is that.
Mike Prorock: That's a great question Marty that's actually not
the case so there's a couple of ways that contributions can occur
probably the easiest is actually to be a member of the working
group which while is very easy if you're a w3c member because
then you just click and say Yes I want to join this group you can
also just file a quick request on the working group age to come.
Mike Prorock: Doesn't invited expert.
Mike Prorock: And to start that process obviously if you're a
contributor or own one of these specs that you know makes that
much much easier so does that answer your question Marty.
Marty Reed: Yeah I just I just wanted to clarify because in
order to you know originally join the BC working group was my
understanding that you did have to be a paying member of w3c.
<brentz> happy to talk briefly about IE status, if that is
helpful.
Marty Reed: It got it okay.
Mike Prorock: Yeah that just removes all barriers basically but
yeah it's and additionally depending on the item like I know for
sure in many cases we've had especially for non-normative items
kind of open GitHub type stuff like depending on what it is for
issues and stuff like that but it but typically what really what
the most common path is.
Marty Reed: Thank you for the clarification.
Mike Prorock: Membership blood followed by the expert status
cool Heather.
Heather Vescent: For more formal structure of what is considered
an invited expert because my experience has been this is this has
been said this is a pathway but it's actually a gatekeeper.
Mike Prorock: I you know I think bran you are on the call I'm
going to point to you since you're currently somewhat involved in
the VC working group would you care to clarify how invited
experts are being handled for PC what we were happy.
BrentZ: I'm happy to ask you to do so I don't want to talk over
carry though if she has a comment to answer me first.
Kerri Lemoie: Nobody was implemented.
BrentZ: So there are.
<kaliya_identitywoman> They let Tony Nadalin in as an Invited
Expert after his super bad almost stalky behavior
BrentZ: Yes it is true that IE status is a potential access route
for joining the VC working group and it's not an access route
that anybody can just sign up for and get in the group with as
Heather points out it is gatekeeping there are a number of
reasons for this most of which is the w3c survives on member
contributions.
BrentZ: And as such there are some members of organizations that
are trying to join as an invited expert when really their
organization is benefiting from the work in such a way that it
would be most appropriate for them to join us full members of the
w3c and so you know that that is one reason why an invited expert
might not be approved to join the group other groups and other.
BrentZ: What it boils down to is that when an invited expert
application comes in it is up to the chairs and the chairs of the
particular working group to determine what they expect from an
invited expert previous groups that I have chaired had the
expectation that an invited expert would be raising PRS and
actively contributing to.
Mike Prorock: +1 Manu
BrentZ: The current guidelines that Christina and I are following
is that and an invited expert needs to be expected to contribute
but those contributions do not necessarily need to take the form
of.
BrentZ: Actual spec text in PRS so just so yes unfortunately
there are gate key aspects to the IE status the gates are a
little bit wider in this group than they have been in previous
groups but there's kind of an overarching barrier which is that
if you are a member of a company that is benefiting from the work
then it's harder to argue that I.
BrentZ: IE status is.
BrentZ: Yet when the most appropriate step is to have your
organization just joined the w3c so there's a couple of things at
work and hopefully that clarifies it a bit but happy to you know
take questions directly and feel free to ping me by email or.
Heather Vescent: I guess Brent like as someone who has been gate
kept twice but yet invited in when I was co-chair I've not seen
any transparency and I know one of those times I was gate kept
personal and I know the antidotal messages oh if you're just
friends with the chair they'll let you in and that's what I've
seen I'd like to see a little bit more rigor and transparency and
maybe you and Christina could kind of.
Heather Vescent: Of like document some of that so.
Heather Vescent: Lisa addresses some of the.
Heather Vescent: I don't want.
Heather Vescent: Nepotism but it's like I mean.
<mprorock> @Heather - I appreciate the concern (it is valid) -
but this is a W3C policy aspect
Heather Vescent: It definitely does not look good from an
openness perspective and it is actually quite harmful to the ccg
in that we have such an open group and we're trying to involve as
many people here in the participation but it is really hurtful if
people are able to contribute to like the DID spec or verifiable
credentials stuff here in the ccg and then their gate kept from
anything further because they don't fit certain characteristics.
Heather Vescent: Or even like those characters.
Heather Vescent: Six aren't even like clear so it would be just
really great to start with like some transparency of some of
these points so that at least people could be treated the same.
BrentZ: I hear what you're saying and thank you for the feedback.
Mike Prorock: All right, Kerri.
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah sorry there's some good points Heather thank
you for saying that I was actually I'm just one do ask question
I'm making an assumption that any of the task force and the work
items that are going on there none of that is related to any of
this and can keep going as we've been doing.
Mike Prorock: Correct yeah this is only the items that are
listed in that Charter which I believe may know I'm trying to
think if there is anything that would come in at this point aside
from you know the Json you know web signature type stuff the
linked data verification type stuff right I think it's primarily
signature related is that correct or am I missing something.
Manu Sporny: Correct at this point but I think you know if we
get something on the record to say that you know what the the ccg
doesn't have any issue with the be cwg pulling the work into a in
do the formal working group then we don't have to come back and
revisit the other optional documents.
Mike Prorock: She exactly as those things precisely if for some
reason some other item came up and I mean that is kind of the
whole point right Community groups and business groups are pretty
standard so the whole goal is to promote them up into a standard
zorg typically signaled if you're coming in through a w3c
community or business group your signaling that you're going to
take it to a VC working or you know some actual working group at
the w3c.
Mike Prorock: I'm going to put the proposal in the chat.
PROPOSAL: Move forward with Final Community Group Specification
publications by the Work Item Editors and Transfer all input
documents listed in the VCWG 2.0 Charter to the VCWG
Manu Sporny: +1
Orie Steele: +1
Mike Prorock: So basically to move forward with final community
group specification Publications by the work item editors and
chairs as required and to transfer all input documents listed in
the VC working group Charter to d.c. working group.
Charles E. Lehner: +1
Marty Reed: +1
<heather_vescent> 0
Mike Prorock: And if you were not familiar with voting you'll
see an example in there which is Mando and or he's signaling
support by a plus one minus one would support say that you're not
supportive of this zero indicates basically a neutral pass.
Ted Thibodeau: +1
<snorre_diwala> 0
Kimberly Linson: +1
Kaliya Young: +1
<shawn_butterfield> 0
Kerri Lemoie: +1
Mike Prorock: I'm going to keep this open for a few more seconds
here just in case we're missing anyone.
<econnell> 0
RESOLUTION: Move forward with Final Community Group Specification
publications by the Work Item Editors and Transfer all input
documents listed in the VCWG 2.0 Charter to the VCWG
Mike Prorock: All right I'm going to call it I'm going to mark
this resolved and we will proceed with the lovely back in the
office type stuff there.
<manu_sporny> woo!
Daniel Buchner: Yeah yeah can you hear me.
<kerri_lemoie> We need a party to celebrate DIDs.
Mike Prorock: So thanks so much for that all without further Ado
congrats again to everyone on dids because that's amazing and
with that I'm going to pass it on to an interesting collection of
Standards at some other stuff Daniel are you good to go have a
happy to present or awesome so I could hit the ball to you thank
you for joining us just as quick intro if you don't know Daniel
Buckner he is.
Mike Prorock: He's been man.
<juancho> Tireless is the adjective for daniel
Topic: Web5 - The Decentralized Web Platform
<juancho> He does not tire
Mike Prorock: All supporter in all sorts of different ways for a
lot of the standards were working on verifiable credentials dids
Etc and one thing I've always appreciated about Daniel is the
fact that even though he and I don't always see eye-to-eye oh
lots of different things both technical etcetera he's always in
the interest of actually seeing the standard come out to the best
of its ability across the board and sticks to that and that's
that's something that I think is.
Mike Prorock: Is always worth drawing.
Mike Prorock: The lesson from right of the it can be tough to do
is folks get really passionate about this stuff and and bringing
that level of passion and dedication to studying the stuff move
forward literally from some of the earliest days of can we
actually take any of these texts and turn them into something
real and useful and especially hitting at the Privacy aspects and
some of the other high value items that are coming about from
these standards has been awesome to see so with that that's more
than enough intro for me because I'm.
Mike Prorock: I'm not doing Daniel any justice and off we go to
the web five.
Daniel Buchner: Okay I can get him down here me.
Mike Prorock: Loud and clear.
Mike Prorock: Apple to special is up and looks great.
Daniel Buchner: Awesome okay so you probably see this first
slide then I would hope of the gaudy label or name the chosen the
stuff so yeah I guess I'll just start with you know what is this
website thing and why is it named that I think that's you know
something everyone's been wondering is it was it is simple as two
plus two equals five or any of these other things floating around
up I'd say can provide some context and color the reason why we
did this was one.
Daniel Buchner: We didn't really like you know someone.
Daniel Buchner: With browsers and on browser tech for quite a
while previous to all the stuff you know there's a palpable sense
in the traditional web developer community that the ratcheting of
these numbers is sort of you know this third rail right and we're
in this case I guess is fifth Rail and typically that's been
something that hasn't been well received in that Community what
five is much about sort of the erasing this numerical
incrementation claim.
Daniel Buchner: As anything else.
<juancho> All my apes gone
Daniel Buchner: Say what you will about web three you know maybe
there's some interesting things in there but there's also some
things that I think have maybe been detrimental you know to folk
two individuals both monetarily you know financially and
otherwise and you know even privacy privacy aspects so part of
what we want to do is create some separation literally numerical
separation you know to skip for put some put some daylight in
between it to segment out the.
Daniel Buchner: Set of standards that work all together for.
Daniel Buchner: We try many ways real applications a lot of the
the decentralized applications you've seen touted under under the
web three Mantra anyway have more or less there they're sort of
like visualizations of on chain smart contracts and that's that's
not to me you know it's kind of does the word decentralized
application disservice in the sense that I don't think many
people wake up I certainly don't every day and say my gosh I
really need to be into that smart contract right now I don't know
how I'm going to make my coffee today.
Daniel Buchner: They probably are looking at their phones and a
bunch of apps on their phone.
Daniel Buchner: He based apps that have nothing to do with their
finances it's not say finances aren't important but you know my
goal over these last year's last decade or more has been let's
get like decentralized versions of those apps going and a lot of
them don't require tokens or any of those other things so the the
moniker is to separate right the technologies that don't require
those aspects things you might find in what three from the the
actual stuff that builds decentralized apps so digging in you
know.
Daniel Buchner: We want to evolve the web.
Daniel Buchner: It's beyond just traditional identity we want to
involve the web to to adopt a new model where people are at the
center and that's about their identity their data privacy what
they disclose all of that and it's a holistic thing it's not just
identity is traditional sense of like hey I do authentication I
provide governmentally related credentials revving that's kind of
that tends to be what we in the church identity Community have
focused on a lot and I think it's a bit too much.
Daniel Buchner: Wider scope so we want the web to come to you
want you.
Daniel Buchner: With you and want you know absent service to be
more subjugated to the user which is a good thing and so what is
what is what 5 composed of right there was web to there's web
three or I guess I don't know what what there really is term
describe but there certainly is worth five and what that is is a
decentralized web platform comprised of their last developers to
a decentralized web apps with dids decentralized webnotes some
form of standardized personal data store I'll leave it at that
and then.
Daniel Buchner: I follow credentials in there as well but those
two things those three things in concert.
Daniel Buchner: Label enable people to build decentralized web
apps and that's that's really what we envision is what fine so
the pillars would vibrate like I said before dids verifiable
credentials decentralized web knows Community has done a great
job of first to you know be seized or standardized for deities
but now deities are standard as well and we're really missing one
piece we're missing circling the wagons around a application
capable personal data store that can act as the foundational
Center of queries.
Daniel Buchner: And you know all the things.
<mprorock> I see you Ted - and great question - holding some
questions to a good break point
Daniel Buchner: Is that you would need to do if you're building
robust web applications and that's that's sort of the last pillar
that we all have to work on is a DW ends well you know maybe
there's a debate about that but we have a strong conviction about
it so decentralized Enterprise I'm not going to spend much time
on these because you all know this stuff this is a slight at
those developed for more people than just ourselves I'm not
really going to go over it you know DIY is important you can't
have decentralized Identity or user-centric data you know really
without them verified.
Daniel Buchner: Credentials also you know something everyone's
familiar with so I'll just skip over it the last piece is.
Daniel Buchner: The personal data store peace what do we need in
a personal taste or even if you didn't see the name for this
particular personal data store after topping and if and w3c what
would you want right what are the things that need it needs to do
well I think it has to be universally addressable so you have to
be able to find a disorder of didd through a common means I
believe that replication is really important I think if you do it
later if you don't sort of build with it in mind immediately.
Daniel Buchner: Only you kind of tend to back yourself in a
corner with your architectures and it becomes really difficult
so.
Daniel Buchner: Multi-Device masterless operation the default
really from the beginning or else it is very hard to backfill
need to be secure so optionally encrypted data you know if
someone wants to make something publicly a tweet obviously they
should be able to if someone wants to encrypt something with the
medical records they should be able to semantic Discovery right
so I strongly believe that the world is sort of architected in a
way where things are obscured behind walls of HTML and
proprietary apis and it's that.
Daniel Buchner: Inability to sort of query against just a known
peace.
Daniel Buchner: Right an own data type and that's something
that's just not really present in the world today we kind of even
when people do agree on data types like maybe gs1 or others
they'll tend to stick them behind a proprietary API that does
access to some you know custom means that they choose and it
makes it really hard to interoperate and sort of have that
Mashable web so semantics Discovery and data encoding is really
important asynchronous message threads like this is one thing
you'll see like ytc falls falls victim to and certain other
protocols like.
Daniel Buchner: They're based on you know web connection there's
nowhere to go drop off sort of like you would an email something
that happens days.
Daniel Buchner: You in an early early days verifiable
credentials very to be going from a world of analog to digital so
in fact it's not a ramp problem we face this problem immediately
anytime you're going to interface the business who has a back-end
process to be able to get things over into VC there may be hours
or days potentially especially for working the government
obviously to get these things transferred and that means that
people are going to have to come back and be able to get the
credentials its output now you know there's a lot of schemes for.
Daniel Buchner: Being and all this sort of nonsense but I mean
those are just super ugly it's just a lot better if something
notes your t.i..
Daniel Buchner: That's why synchrony in interactions is
important and I'll leave it there but basically you know that's
that's the final pillar you some of you may be working on this
piece which I didn't really a pillar technology as much as is
easier Aid we think about five is going to have to have wallets
that are capable of all the things you would imagine which is you
know of did functionality data management credentials
authentication authorization and then managing context which dids
my using which parties so some of you already working.
Daniel Buchner: This that's great you know block will be pretty
soon wallet it'll be up to 2020.
<kerri_lemoie> Could we get a link to the slides? They're a
little hard to read because they're flashing in and out.
Daniel Buchner: Be capable of doing all these things as well so
what is web fives Network topology kind of when we pull that
through and to 10,000 feet it's combination of decentralized
identifiers and centralized web nodes those can live on user
devices and in remote they are not subservient to their remotes
they don't trust them for authorization invocations they don't
take their word for it they circulate data you know replicated
fashion and if you know someone's d i d like in this case a
listening booth.
Daniel Buchner: ABS ID you can look it up by looking at their
service endpoints.
Daniel Buchner: Know how to interact you this is going to be a
standard form of DeStorm messaging relay so Bob can ask and send
Bob messages Bob Benson Alice back messages.
Mike Prorock: +1 Keri - we can get this (or a version) posted to
the mailing list
Daniel Buchner: What is the stock look like Sophia did talk
about web Faisal stack you know its foundations decentralized
identifiers.
Mike Prorock: Good I am watching Ted hike.
Orie Steele: -1 To interrupting and not following the process
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): I'm going to
I'm sorry I'm going to jump in and speak because the queue is not
being watched and so things are not happening wait Mike wait Mike
Carey just asked if we get a get a link from slides and I would
ask the same thing because they are very difficult to read
because the style sheet is not conducive to this kind of
presentation and then if we could also start to actually look at
the questions as they're happening because it doesn't make sense.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): My question
to wait until the end of the.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Because I'm
just going to phase out based on what's being talked about
because it's skipping over a very key question.
Daniel Buchner: Okay I can get the slide I can get a link to the
slides there is actually one this was published by the way on
Twitter and Linkedin and our website so there's all available if
you go to TV dot website there's there's stuff there I'll make
sure to get a link to that stuff you know towards the Earth.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): I'm sorry
seeking the web is not helpful at this juncture.
Daniel Buchner: Okay yeah I don't I have to go in and crawl in
like look around for it like right now and probably deviate for a
few minutes if that's.
<heather_vescent> Daniel, you've lost me too with this preso.
Mike Prorock: Ted as I noted in the chat we will make sure to
post copy of the slides up to the mailing list as soon as they're
available so.
Manu Sporny:
https://developer.tbd.website/docs/Decentralized%20Web%20Platform%20-%20Public.pdf
<orie> this hostility is not appropriate
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): And once
again that is very difficult to follow when we're trying to
follow what is being described on the slides Distributing the
slide deck in advance of the presentation as a necessary thing
and yes I'm being angry and frustrated right now because that is
what could have happened at least hours ago if not days ago.
Manu Sporny: Lincoln chat Ted I just dropped it in there.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Thank you
manu.
<manu_sporny> /me curtsies.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks for the link
Daniel Buchner: Okay so yeah if you look at this from a staff
perspective you know with the centralized their Fires at the base
do you have nodes or personal data store insert here no we're all
going to try and work towards slamming that and then you'll see
this DW a model so how do we how do we make decentralize web apps
we're going out a little bit but on top is what everything else
sits on so whether that's the div version of signal or TV decks
or exchange thing we're building everything else just use.
Daniel Buchner: These components and these pipes and can be
built on it so.
Daniel Buchner: A little bit too like what are DWIs well first
probably helpful mmm.
Mike Prorock: Yeah for a Daniel you good for a quick question
before we move on here so saw question in the chat related to
differences from solid and I think before we get much further in
the stack may be a good point to get it that Ted do you want to
ask directly or.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Sure I can
ask directly it's not very complex question it's how and where
does this actually does this vision of a stack differ from the
solid Vision this deck they seem to be almost identical except
for the technical technicalities of implementation.
Daniel Buchner: Yes I think there's a lot of technical
technological differences I may be until recently very recently I
think it might still not have actually been there they weren't
supporting Goods they were going with long failed proposal called
what id that's been out there for whatever new 13 14 years some
some very long period of time pretty centralized they mostly
build on the Federated model so they have a federation concept is
generally how they see these things being deployed.
Daniel Buchner: There's also kind of a lack of replication.
Daniel Buchner: Location in sync.
<tallted> This explanation exposes significant misunderstanding
of Solid.
Daniel Buchner: At the same level that we're really hoping for
it's much more like hey in the just like you have email you're
going to have this pod and you know there's a higher degree of
trust in enforcement of capability and stuff like that you know
the authorization side so it is fundamentally a little bit
different on the textile certainly different composition of tech
and then a different output features and you know maybe there's
some protons I'm not going to I don't know what the cons would be
but I do know there are enough differences and features that we.
Daniel Buchner: I felt that that wasn't a good solution and I've
been aware of solid obviously since its Inception.
Daniel Buchner: You working on.
Daniel Buchner: Interest prior to it coming to be so not with
that team many times very well aware of.
<dmitriz> @TallTed - fwiw, folks from Solid spoke on the DWN
calls several times
Adrian_: Would it be possible to dispatch my question as well at
this point on the cube.
Mike Prorock: Sure as long as it's a good one so that we can get
through the material.
<dmitriz> so the two communities (Solid, DWN) are not unknown to
each other
Adrian_: Well it's a very simple question the the presentation
starts out sort of you know clearly focusing on the storage
aspects as opposed to the control aspects of a personal data
perspective which I think we all agree on and did being a
foundational aspect of it which I think we all agree on.
Adrian_: and so.
Adrian_: I am wondering just as a question of scope while Daniel
continues as to whether he envisions they're being separate
processor versus controller architectures that are sort of
coexistent or co-equal in this web five context or whether one is
sub including the other emerging the other.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah I think the typically in the construction
of me and for you know the actual resource that the physical data
holder of an instance like you might have been since your phone
your laptop and leave you up and help them remove right or when
on your desk on a desktop great each one of those instances must
vow to evaluate the capability and vocations they don't trust
anyone else like let's say in a typical model of you were to say
okay I've got like some data over here on one server and I've got
an authorization.
Daniel Buchner: You set up some some knowledge of the to have
knowledge of each other and once one checks the authorization the
other is just sort of a dumb slave to it and says well great like
here's data that's kind of antithetical to the model of do you
have nodes because they any separation any error gapping of the
implementation between data and authorization is a scary Vector
so they don't trust each other there's not going to be like oh
well I'm calling over here to the data trust me data data storage
provider because I said so because you know we have a
relationship it's like every deal.
Daniel Buchner: No do she checks the authorizations so unlike a
traditional web.
Daniel Buchner: You know token-based thing where you know you
give a token out to someone that they can do things on the like
maybe a server right don't go to that server and they'll present
the token or the authorization and they'll put the data and then
you have Downstream devices that might read the data and just
trust that that all happened very well right just trust it all
happened like oh I'm sure that server in the sky checked it took
and everything's good any day that they take in is data I should
have right deal of nodes or hostile they're very hostile to even
each other.
Daniel Buchner: So if I have a deal of note on my phone and I
have one outbound remote there.
Daniel Buchner: Right they don't just trust each other even
though like the debug node remote one that replica checked a
capability that was invoked on it by say Alice you wanted to see
where inputs and pictures into your data store your local one on
your phone would not trust it even though it's in the same ring
do you have notes they're yours they don't trust each other so
it's yeah.
Adrian_: Okay so it's just I understand so just to clarify then
everybody in your model is both a controller and a processor.
<orie> Adrian I think so.
Daniel Buchner: There's no way to eliminate the trust right I
don't we don't want to trust the other nodes yeah sure
absolutely.
Adrian_: It's a simple yes-no question everybody in your model is
both a controller and a processor.
Adrian_: Thank you I'm good thank you.
Daniel Buchner: Well they don't control you you control you tell
them here's the same capabilities to to execute but every but
what if the statement is that everyone checks the capabilities
against the data so that it's like a triple check right it's not
on Ledger it's not watching but it's every single instance of
yours performs the same X Okay cool so yeah no problem so to
understand what dwa is our first thing to understand pwi so if
you don't you're not familiar.
Daniel Buchner: The term stands for Progressive web app it's
another collection of.
Daniel Buchner: That kind of come together in the browser to
produce installable more native feeling web apps and you'll see
this in your browser if you kind of like go on certain websites
like to remove like leave this one and you can install them and
send your url Barrio click this button which side you want to
install this web app and you know have its own desktop icon
you'll have you know when you open it doesn't have tabs like a
browser it actually has themed title bars and windows and all
these other things so it feels more like a native app and then it
has access to some.
Daniel Buchner: Capabilities like service workers and some
other niceties that help it work offline.
<brentz> /me I'm only familiar with NWAs
<mprorock> /me thinks brent wins the comment contest so far
Daniel Buchner: And it just feels you know more like an apple
experience so what are PW as well for would have DW is rather we
want to go from PW is to decentralize web apps and that's where
we kind of embed certain D ID and decentralized webnode sdks into
a standard service worker that you would use as developer for
installing an app and it allows you to ask the users wallet there
D ID W for authorization to be able to do interact with certain
portion of your data store and then.
Daniel Buchner: Allows them to actually have this offline
user-centric to experience just like they would have.
Daniel Buchner: Offline did experience with the centralized
servers and replicated and locally stored data so it's sort of
subbing out decentralized app server model for something that's
still hits on all the same apis and allows installable web app
standards to work but then augments them with dids and personal
data store capabilities so you a few examples were getting
towards the end you find a did on the ground you know Alice does.
Daniel Buchner: She wants to know something about it you know
the model you look up the.
Daniel Buchner: In the service end points you might go to the
nerd you request and say Hey you know I want your banking trigger
I know the schema for that give me anything that you have of
yours that's looks like this I think each other and they would
send back potentially a verified credential data format of that
Charter signed by someone else recognizes and then she'd have
more trust that it's a real bank for us we're building TV decks
on top of this infrastructure so what is TV decks other than a
series of messages asks.
Daniel Buchner: Kic animal credential whatever happened whatever
the participant demands in this case a bank all they are messages
and data sent between debug nodes of participants in this case
Alice is sending an ask to maybe some banks and there's some
crypto currency exchanges and she's saying hey I got this much
this much in USD I want to get some some Bitcoin you know let's
let's negotiate this and so that mutation occurs over do abodes
another example you know we there's.
Daniel Buchner: He's got we have several other music apps.
Daniel Buchner: Little Jack recent photo.
Daniel Buchner: About how they were kind of doing some really
rather ghetto Poland's of data from other you know sources to be
able to give you your playlist you know seamlessly least in their
app and that's because that's where like a c-minus version of
what I hope the world is afterworlds more like hey my music plays
distorted me and I could permit I can authorize any app to be
able to be my music app on a particular device right so I can use
different music apps on different devices and that's really you
know an applications kids were going after.
Daniel Buchner: Last one you know we're all traveling a little
bit more know the codes concluding or at least you know not not
as crazy.
Daniel Buchner: And you know all these things these things we
get hotel reservations airline tickets car rentals you know
dinner reservations all this stuff sort of comes to either our
email and we have a centralized provider who snoops over all our
stuff and provides this kind of weak itinerary or we do some
crazy authorizations for TripIt or a couple of the companies that
have been you know ordained as the ones that can do these things
and I think it should be a lot better if these things were
verifiable credentials or pieces of data stored in your data
store.
Daniel Buchner: And you can give other applications any
application choose access to be able to render and experiences
with help you.
Daniel Buchner: Oops so these are just some of these cases that
we have bro / you know just where we at on realizing this y'all
done a great service obviously by getting dudes in VCS are be
there I think a lot of the rest of it has to do with some
implementation robust implementations of those things and then
adding the personal data store piece and getting that DWI runtime
ready for developers so that they can use it easily and Bs code
and you know just sort of be able to start you know boilerplate
for web five apples.
Daniel Buchner: Looks like so yeah so that's pretty much it.
<tallted> that roadmap is not in the downloadable deck
Daniel Buchner: You know people talk about identity and what's
identity personally I think identities everything everything you
do is identity because it defines you right like my shopping list
defines me more than my social security number more than more
than a lot of things and so when we don't realize that everything
in all of these apps is really our identity just sprinkled and
helped by custodians and centralized third parties you don't
really realize the totality of identity and so I think that
that's what God represents its it wants to provide a centralized
platform for all of that and.
Daniel Buchner: All the work you all done.
Mike Prorock: So let's see Harrison I see you on the queue.
Daniel Buchner: It's so you know I've been building a platform I
think we always have been yeah so here's some links you can go to
find out more about what we're doing but that's all again.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you Daniel for the great presentation I'm
just curious for the decentralized web know how is that different
from like ipfs plus like ceramic.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah so so interesting so we ipfs is a public by
default Network there's something called IPS cluster but it's
very heavy weight it's Mormon built for if you want to be like a
pinning this large pinning service that serves doesn't work this
data what I profess really didn't have a good capability for was
saying like hey and by default I want to keep all my stuff
private right maybe I want to make some stuff problem and we just
saw that as you know that's just like table Stakes right we
didn't want comfortable with you.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah and some ugly ceramic still might be
another can't speak.
Daniel Buchner: And present day.
<juancho> Great question, Harrison. There is also Spruces Kepler,
Verida's VC platform, Fission etc. The IPFS + AuthZ layer is a
strong contender :)
Daniel Buchner: Yourself a couple months but still kind of has
this hey it's all it's okay if it's all public which to encrypt
some of the things and we projected out to network running can
see it and that's that's just wasn't an acceptable foundational
assumption for us there are definitely other features that are
Beyond I think that there's like messaging inbox style features
do you have nodes there are some CRDT affordances and D web nodes
replication is a little bit different so yeah it's similar to
solid rights like.
Daniel Buchner: Is are these all personal data stores when you
squint sure.
Daniel Buchner: Like they do have different assumptions and
capabilities and now I will say that you know we are actually
running an and IP custom node inside of the reference
implementation all we really actually rely on our IPL decode X so
chunking the data in a way that's compatible with my BFS Block
store and I feel D Block store but you don't actually have to run
a heavyweight my professors at all to remind you of noted it
really is just a data store that's independent now you could Echo
out some of your data over the public address not working.
Daniel Buchner: If you decided to get help.
Harrison_Tang: Yes thank you.
Mike Prorock: Also my think or he's next let me just verify yep
Ori.
Orie Steele: So you know you mentioned decentralised identifiers
and you also mentioned sort of wanting to sort of separate web 5
from web three I wonder whether you can just talk about the
decentralized identifiers as a component of this system are you
looking at networks other than Bitcoin to create you know
decentralised identifiers or to interact with the centralized web
notes like talk about it more about the openness to decentralize
identifiers.
<juancho> Yeah would it work with other Sidetrees ?
Orie Steele: As opposed to sort of being focused on.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah I know that's this is a really good point
so none of the stock is is is hardbound a Bitcoin whether it be
for currency purposes or for didd anchoring purposes you know the
Exemplar being like ion in that sense what we're building in the
duodenum reference implementations a pluggable architecture that
understands dids in general obviously we didn't you know me to
write a plug-in for every didn do so I think there's like 400
million now we wrote.
Daniel Buchner: For did web did key ion and.
Daniel Buchner: If other people were to extend that
functionality but nothing in the entire stack of what five is
hard bound to any of these Ledger's in fact there's The Ledger
list is that are you can use it within it and is that help.
Mike Prorock: Yeah in quick follow-on for clarity sake Daniel do
you happen to have a good pointer if someone's looking to add
support for another did method in is there a Best repo starting
place or where should folks be looking to if they're contribute
on that.
Daniel Buchner: https://github.com/TBD54566975/dwn-sdk-js
Mike Prorock: Yeah no it makes total sense awesome Ted.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah let me let me go ahead and put it in the
chat the repo know obviously this is still being actively
developed so just you know understand that this is still early
but you know we think we're going to be done sometime in full so
if you want to you know try and get your plugins in there
certainly do and then we want to plug in the universe resolver to
so if you want to like have that to the side of it you know we
don't want to not use that good piece of tech.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Yeah I'm not
sure where man who found the length of these shared but the deck
that comes from their does not have the roadmap and I don't know
if there any other differences between what was on screen and
what the deck so.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah yeah I'm not really any differences to
roadmap at that point wasn't public a couple months you know
month and a half ago we did actually just make the road not
public the last Friday so I added it because of that that was
also published in our public Twitter for TVD and and our blog you
can see a teeny dot website.
<manu_sporny> I got the link from the tbd.website
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): This is this
is the sort of thing I mean.
Mike Prorock: Alright let's get back on topic here and we could
take that to the list Heather.
Heather Vescent: Yeah thanks thanks Daniel is really great to
understand what you think web 5 is it seems like this is a very
identity data Excel data Centric view of what the future of the
web is and that makes me think that maybe web 5 is just up your
product name is there like a place in this Vision or the stack
like I didn't see like I was actually going to ask you what's the
web 5 stock for then you talked about it but I mean if it's like
a god.
Heather Vescent: Op incrementation I feel like there's just a.
Mike Prorock: https://developer.tbd.website/projects/web5/
Heather Vescent: Seen from what that stock would be like there's
a whole bunch of other functionality like transactions
infrastructure iot those are just ones I thought I'd the top of
my mind like is this web five just your product name for
marketing or is this like an aspirational vision of the future of
the web but only from an identity data-centric point of view.
Daniel Buchner: So when I will what I will say is again
identities everything right everything in the world's identic
very few pieces of data or not identity driven it was either put
there by someone at leaves a trail of who it describes them right
like like I most your apps I would say your identity apps don't
actually contain most of your identity Monsieur it is strewn
about Google Facebook like they own your identity that's who owns
you so when you bring a Peyote yeah I mean I do we do see this as
a vision for what the future Evolution the web can be right not
just a product name.
Daniel Buchner: Knocking put it on his product and that's those
never desires just sort of like hey someone came up with the name
web.
Daniel Buchner: One point right so someone.
<heather_vescent> Bruce Schneier uses Internet+
<mprorock> fyi https://www.w3.org/WoT/ has some strong potential
for integration
<heather_vescent> And tons of people are dreaming of owning the
name that describes what the next iteration of the web will be.
Daniel Buchner: Come up with a different one what I'll say about
to give you example Heather iot right certainly this is for it
right because you know iot devices have identity the probably
have to deprive a backing digital twin that could be a
decentralized webnode you might interact with them for a purposes
like you go to your door you're going to send the debug node that
backs that door lock that has a PID you know and unlock signal in
the form of an invocation capability so yeah I know I think that
this totally spans just about every application use case you know
that you can imagine if.
Daniel Buchner: Because it at the end when you say data and
identity I mean those are the two Primitives that can basically
be the.
Daniel Buchner: If you do look at it and abstract for you.
Daniel Buchner: So that that is what it do what note is that is
that is a deal now.
<daniel> DWeb Nodes are datastores
Mike Prorock: +1 Daniel
Heather Vescent: Oh yeah okay but Daniel you need like storage
to you have got a place where you put that I mean I think it's
very nice I think is very naive to like reframe the the internet
from an identity perspective I mean like it's genius in some way
to but I think it also is a very biased view that leaves out
other perspectives that are equally valid that said you know you
can run your own.
Heather Vescent: Acting company the way.
Heather Vescent: It but I think it is problematic if you're
going to put forth an identifier like the web 5 that is
aspirational something that's like framing to an order to the
community without like getting feedback from the community or I
mean whatever it's fine it's your vision that's cool you can have
it I got my.
<rodolfo_miranda> is DIDComm also contemplated in the stack ?
<juancho> The discord is pretty active, fwiw
Daniel Buchner: Yeah no I get it I mean the weapon people never
came to me personally and asked me how they how I felt about it
so I don't feel like I need to ask their permission either but
but you know I mean that's just how the cookie crumbles in five
pieces at this point but I would say that you know it is it is a
datastore so like we talked about where's the storage like that
is what these do have notes are there not like a light relay that
like forgets data they are the datastore the facts your stuff and
so not all apps can be built with just pushing data to the user
we realize that and obviously like there's some apps.
<juancho> I would like to hear an answer to Rodolfo's question
Daniel Buchner: Did you heavy computation and massive workloads
in the business stuff and they're still going to be clouds I mean
I'm not saying.
Daniel Buchner: Everything's going as do you have known.
Daniel Buchner: Vast majority of consumer apps I believe can
push their data to you and interact with it to more directly and
I think that that's that's what we'd like to see is the
intelligent Edge and data people coming to you if that makes
sense.
<juancho> I'm somewhere loud tho so won't q+
<tallted> The roadmap in the tweetstream is a graphic ...
https://twitter.com/TBD54566975/status/1547974294210093059/photo/1
Mike Prorock: Awesome cool and I keep myself just wanted to ask
it because obviously you guys are leveraging some standards that
obviously you personally have put a lot of sweat effort into you
know both from prior Incarnation and current the you know where
are you going from the standard side like how are you handling
kind of the you know the website is that just going to you know
be a diff thing or is that going to be you know are there other
aspect at ietf and or.
Mike Prorock: W3c from a directional standpoint obviously with.
Mike Prorock: No going on right now right there there's some
standards at you know points there I mean what do you see from
that path forward where do you see kind of the openness and
philosophy obviously you guys have started very open is that
going to be maintained right or is danger down the Google path
for right.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah absolutely yeah soon the whole thing me
Jack Jack you know his tweets that preceded you know I don't know
if anyone saw about a year ago he kind of lamented the state of
web his role in sort of creating weird Echo Chambers and stuff I
mean he's genuine about that and you know we're trying to say
like maybe well put one proposal out there that can restore some
of the stuff you know that he certainly doesn't like to see
personally so yeah I know it'll continue to be an open.
<mprorock> this is the DWN spec
https://identity.foundation/decentralized-web-node/spec/
Daniel Buchner: Dinner's wherever people think they need to go
I'm not we don't have any sacred cows have any of that stuff so
yeah I mean continuing to work and those three standards those
big big ones are not the end right like if we really want like
five to work if we really want something like this to take hold
we're going to need browsers to recognize it we're going to need
them to do did relative URL resolution on their own we're going
to have to make sure that these the origin model is no longer
bound to just DNS right these are huge.
Daniel Buchner: Judge other things in the standards and you
know Industries.
Daniel Buchner: Going to have to push rocks uphill on so I'm
under no you know I'm under no illusions that this is going to be
easy or slam dunk anywhere and we have to work really hard and
all these venues.
Mike Prorock: Yeah no awesome yeah because I think you've got
the to w3c and then the 1.diff right for DWI ends I think that's
the three kind of Corwin's just wanted to make sure that was out
on the record there Adrian.
Mike Prorock: Adrian you're mic up?
Juancho: His q+ said he was going to ask about service and points
and I was going to ask about service and void so.
<orie> sadly did:key does not support service endpoints.
Mike Prorock: Exactly yeah that might be a good one to close on
because I know we're coming up on time here and if we can't we'll
slip one more in regarding you know VC 2.0 type stuff I think for
many but you know any clarification around like actual did
service and points or directionality and things you see there
because obviously I feel like the did course spec as an awesome
start but you know as even noted in some of the fos right there
still a lot of work to be done there I mean how do you see that
rolling forward.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah I mean I hope that we someone actually said
it got it wasn't maybe wasn't definitely in the minority asking
about like hey someone's service endpoint scheme how are they
doing did URL addressing like I think getting things like that
bit more involved I mean we have a weigh-in the DWI the deed
webnotes back that we're doing did relative URL addressing but I
don't know that it's the best or great I mean you know there's
probably a lot of flush out there so nailing that down would be
excellent all the stuff that I've already seen going on VC 2.0 is
really really important.
Daniel Buchner: And sort of evolving things Beyond everything's
possible to like an arrow.
Daniel Buchner: Set of like.
<orie> DID URLs are a jungle.... path, query are really not well
defined /used... fragment is the only reliable uri component :/
Daniel Buchner: Community believes these things are the best
things the things possible I think that that would do everyone
huge favors in terms of revocations young man who worked on
status list and or revocation list as well that's great and kind
of just getting the schemes into a narrower set I mean that would
be very helpful.
<tallted>
Mike Prorock: Awesome and Manu I think we've got enough time for
you to close this out I'll me you know 2.0 side.
Ted Thibodeau: True [scribe assist by Charles E. Lehner]
Manu Sporny: Sure and it in Daniel actually started in the in
the last thing I mean you know one of the things I love about
Daniel is that he has been very consistent about this vision for
the future of the web you know going all the way back to your
Mozilla days Daniel which is great right like you are you know
one of the you know strong leaders in the community that's
pushing towards this future for all of us what can.
Manu Sporny: We do to help.
Mike Prorock: +1 Manu - how can we help best
Manu Sporny: Lead the ccg in VC w g is there like we could focus
on that would help the detail the the web 5 initiative you're
talking about.
<cel> My question was to be about if there is awareness of name
conflict of "DWeb Node" between DIF DWNs and
https://getdweb.net/#nodes (Internet Archive)
<kaliya_identitywoman> Participate in the DWN working group (it
is jointly charted by CCG and DIF)
<orie> How to help web5: read the specs, open issues, comment,
open PRs, share on twitter :)
Daniel Buchner: Yeah I mean I think that the ones we can do is
really just getting to a narrow side you know side of like 2 to 3
for the things like revocation that are common schemes that cover
all the feature need basis like some credentials don't need like
you know Subaru cryptographic capabilities like you know just
something like a set that everyone can Implement in their
libraries would be great like right now we're just trying to
cover ground kind of making that known I think getting the did
relative URL stuff locked down and saying this is exactly how you
do this.
Daniel Buchner: This will do some wonky stuff because we just
didn't really have.
Daniel Buchner: Your guidance really.
<kaliya_identitywoman> Come to DWeb Camp
<kaliya_identitywoman> ?
<juancho> Props to Oliver for pushing the VC extension registey
<juancho> Ry
Daniel Buchner: How to do it and then on the on the datastore
peace and men are you know this year we're going to do these
their ceramic did I mean there's me and there's data stores like
like they're rdid Methods at this point and do I know that you
have nodes are going to look exactly like they look like in the
first iteration put out who knows it's kind of a play it's one of
them put to the community right but I think that's the serious
component that will hinder this going forward if we don't circle
the wagons around one or two probably not more than that
constructions of these things.
Daniel Buchner: Things we won't.
Daniel Buchner: Sort of the exchange of credentials you know in
sort of more nascent flows and we won't get to that data the
other side of that data Island that has all the good stuff to
kind of not not remove Google and Facebook from the lives maybe
that maybe people want to use the services but certainly not have
this been too beholden to them and so I really would love focus
on that days for peace if possible.
<manu_sporny> +1, very helpful, thank you Daniel!
Mike Prorock: Awesome well that is a great note to close on the
so yeah thanks again for the time really appreciate everyone's
engagement contributions the you know will be obviously circling
back again next week and that agenda should go out shortly but I
believe that as jmf update on some plugfest stuff and things like
that is that right Kimberly.
Kimberly Linson: That is right yeah it's going to be great we're
going to get a update on BCE to you as well.
<harrison_tang> Thank you, Daniel, for sharing your Web5 project
!!!
Mike Prorock: Awesome really looking forward to that and just
love and seeing the amount of activity rolling around on all
sides especially from an implementation side so thanks again all
I'm going to go ahead and stop recording and Daniel thanks again
for your time today.
Daniel Buchner: Thank you everyone for having me I appreciate
it.
<kerri_lemoie> Thank you!!
<kaliya_identitywoman> come to this event Exploring Web3 identity
for decentralized society -
https://www.radicalxchange.org/2022-conference/
Mike Prorock: Recording has stopped.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): If I could
have a minute of your time Mike after everybody else has gone.
Mike Prorock: Absolutely and I was actually going to request the
same do you want to hit my cell or.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Here is fine
just once the room is closed out.
Received on Wednesday, 20 July 2022 14:48:54 UTC