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[MINUTES] W3C CCG CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2022-11-21

From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2022 20:55:52 +0000
Message-ID: <E1p8SbU-00GpPa-Oz@mimas.w3.org>
Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!

The transcript for the call is now available here:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:


VC for Education Task Force Transcript for 2022-11-21

  1. IP Note
  2. Call Notes
  3. Introductions & Reintroductions
  4. Announcements & Reminders
  5. JFFLabs & VC-EDU Plugfest #2 & Internet Identity Workshop 
    (IIW) Recap
  Kerri Lemoie
  Our Robot Overlords
  Kerri Lemoie, Sergey Podshivalin, Sharon Leu, Mahesh Balan - 
  pocketcred.com, David Ward, Jim Goodell, Stuart Freeman, David 
  Chadwick, Simone Ravaoli, Julie Keane, Jim Kelly, Andreas 
  Abraham, Jen Schreiber, Deb Everhart, Kayode Ezike, Nis Jespersen 
  , Dmitri Zagidulin, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) 
  (OpenLinkSw.com), Ryan Grant, Kaliya Young, Colin Reynolds, Ed 
  Design Lab, Sheri Myrick-ASU, Andy Miller, Snorre Lothar von 
  Gohren Edwin, Marty Reed, MIke Peck, Phil L (P1), James 
  Chartrand, Nate Otto, Phil Long, Jeff O - HumanOS, xander - 
  ASU/Pocket, John Kuo, Geun-Hyung, Phil Barker, Niels klomp, Tim 
  Dutta, Manu Sporny, Brian Richter

<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> :)
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Kerri Lemoie:  Hello everybody Welcome to the Monday November 
  21st call or w3c verifiable credentials for Education task force 
  we meet every Monday at 8:00 a.m. Pacific and 11 a.m. eastern we 
  go over some boilerplate notes at the beginning and then we will 
  get into our main topic that will be about Club Crest to I'm 
  going to be your meeting moderator today my name is Kerri Lemoie.

Topic: IP Note

Kerri Lemoie:   And the first thing on our IR on our.
Kerri Lemoie:  Is to discuss IP note please know that anybody 
  anyone at all can participate in this cause however I'll 
  substitute for contributions to any of the ccg work items 
  specifically on documentation and standards should be done by 
  members with full IP our agreement signed you should ensure that 
  first the you have a W3 account and then you can agree to the 
  contributor license agreement if you check the agenda for this 
  call the links for all of this.
Kerri Lemoie:   It will be in there as you may know we have a.

Topic: Call Notes

Kerri Lemoie:  Scriber and this this robot does the best that it 
  can to understand us even mumblers like me and I take these notes 
  for us that we publish so we publish everything including the 
  audio and potentially video If we have it to a public page and 
  this is how we have an archive for us to look back on to learn 
  for and for those who can attend the meetings we do we do Q 
  everything in these calls to if you would like to ask a question.
Kerri Lemoie:   Or or I make a comment just type you.
Kerri Lemoie:  In the chat just like I'm doing right now.
Kerri Lemoie:  So adieu to the queue I mean type Q - they can 
  remove yourself from the queue and as we're doing the call we'll 
  keep an eye on that cue and calling you you know it seems the 
  best fit so next let's see what we're going to do some 
  introductions and reintroductions about 20 23 people on the call 
  today so is there anybody here that is new or who is revisiting 
  this call would like to introduce themselves.

Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions

Kerri Lemoie:   Elves and if so just do a q+.
Kerri Lemoie:  In the chat and we'll add yourself to the queue.
Kerri Lemoie:  New see me do a Q&A question mark in the chat that 
  is me checking the queue.
Kerri Lemoie:  See you in the queue welcome.
Jen_Schreiber: Hi I'm Jen Schreiber I am an engineer software 
  engineer at work day and got to hear about some of the plugfest 
  at IW so I'm happy to join in on this call.
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> Hello Jen !
Kerri Lemoie:  And worry for mentorship.
Kerri Lemoie:  I sent thank you for joining us.
Maury_Shenk_(LearnerShape): Hi I'm Maury I'm founder of a fairly 
  early stage UK startup called learner shape we build open source 
  infrastructure for skills and very interested to hear what 
  everybody has to say joining us.
Kerri Lemoie:  Hey one other thing I should note that if you are 
  paying attention to the robot transcriber on the left side and 
  you see that it it transcribes the word that definitely is not 
  the word you could help us along with that by doing substitutions 
  in the chat and you can do that like this I'm going to type it 
  try and show you what I mean did you ask for it / wrong word or / 
  right word and that should later on when the.
Kerri Lemoie:   Transcription of publishing.
Kerri Lemoie:  Happy place the wrong one with the right one for 

Topic: Announcements & Reminders

Kerri Lemoie:  Next on the agenda is announcements and reminders 
  does anybody have anything they would like to tell us about 
  anything that's upcoming anything they've launched recently new 
  jobs or anything else that is going on.
Kerri Lemoie:  Is there something or would like to tell us 
  something later feel free to cure yourself in any time and you 
  can do that.
<sharon_leu> I'm on!

Topic: JFFLabs & VC-EDU Plugfest #2 & Internet Identity Workshop (IIW) Recap

Kerri Lemoie:  So what are we get to our main topic which is to 
  talk about the plugfest don't see Sharon Luan here today Shannon 
  nope she might join us in a little while we'll get started anyway 
  oh you are here right here let me give you a link to my slides.
Kerri Lemoie:  I will review these.
Kerri Lemoie: 
Kerri Lemoie:  Actually turn while I'm pulling up the slides how 
  about you I call on you just to give us sort of an introduction 
  to what the plugfest has been and tell us more about it from a 
  jobs for the future jff perspective.
<jim_goodell> Is Kerri on mute or is it just me?
Sharon Leu:  Thanks Carrie and thanks for everyone for joining 
  today so just a quick overview of my name is Sharon Lou and I 
  work at an organization called jobs for the future for those of 
  you who don't know jobs for the future is an organization in the 
  United States that has been around for about 40 years and we 
  focus on the question of how do we provide opportunities for 
  economic advancement for all our research question in the context 
  of credentials then is what is the role that digital credentials 
  can play.
Sharon Leu:   In that process and we're very interested in the 
  idea of individuals.
<kerri_lemoie> I was just on mute but I think folks could hear 
  me... Can you hear Sharon?
<jim_goodell> ...sorry must be me I see transcription.
<julie_keane> Yes we can hear Sharon
Sharon Leu:  Learning and working records over the course of a 
  Lifetime right so what people talk about when they talk about 
  lifelong learning and managing the credentials that I think that 
  provide evidence of the skills and abilities that they do have 
  and being able to share and share these as they pursue further 
  opportunities so with some funding from the Walmart Foundation we 
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks @Jim
Sharon Leu:  Hosting a series of in the middle I guess of a 
  series of plugfest in the purpose of these is to see if we can 
  make it technical possible to for Learners and workers to curate 
  their own learning and employment records and in order to curate 
  their learning and employment records it's necessary for Learners 
  to have control over these digital credentials to be able to hold 
  them in to create presentation so we've been taking this we just 
  finished the second of three.
Sharon Leu:   In the first plug vest.
<kaliya> I am dialing in on my phone - and the app there - but I 
  can’t hear any of you.  Mmm
Sharon Leu:  Well it's themselves and the credentials the second 
  one that just happened last week at iiw we looked at the 
  interaction between wallets and credential issuers and I see that 
  on the agenda we're going to be talking about the third one but 
  hopefully we are hoping to be able then to bring the third sort 
  of leg of the trust triangle into that the verifiers and relying 
  parties so in that context it is a very it's you know been it's 
  been great for all of you to be.
Sharon Leu:   Part of this.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Kaliya - I ran into similar (with my mobile 
  app), try connect in a mobile browser?
Sharon Leu:  Been possible without you and I'll just give my 
  quick hot take is I was actually really impressed with all of the 
  work that happens not that impressing you should me should be 
  your goal but I think we a lot of us went into this thinking that 
  we were presenting a hardship to all of you that it would be may 
  be difficult for you to find the minimum number of two partners 
  but what really astonished us was the number of that once 
  interoperability I think was achieved with one or two partners it 
  made it infinitely easier.
Sharon Leu:   And in the.
Sharon Leu:  The chap you.
Sharon Leu:  Some other tools to actually demonstrate 
  interoperability across a large number of the players in the 
  ecosystem and I know that Carrie you have some slides about this 
  so I won't get too much into that but I think that is overall my 
  quick my hot take on this and I will guess turn it back over to 
  you carry to go through the rundown and if anyone has any 
  questions put them into the chat and I will chat with you or we 
  can talk later.
Kerri Lemoie:  Awesome thanks Sharon.
Kerri Lemoie:  I'm going to put the slides back up here for you.
Kerri Lemoie:  Okay can everyone see my slides okay.
<sheri_myrick-asu> yes
<julie_keane> Seeing only black screen.  But all good I have them 
  pulled up
Kerri Lemoie:  I see two of these are sides that have I pulled 
  together for today I am certain they are not entirely complete 
  and I'm happy that there are so many of you on the call who are 
  at breakfast so please feel free to jump in at any point in time 
  put yourself in the queue and fill in any thoughts while these 
  slides are online or at the end of the slides we'll have time for 
  for more discussions.
Kerri Lemoie:   Super my IBC igp.
Kerri Lemoie:  We love partnering up with Jeff F on this because 
  it is our Vector really has been to to see that the podcast would 
  broaden the vendor participation using VCS and dids and in the VC 
  I do ecosystem and we want to be able to introduce PC wallets and 
  issuers to Education data standards including at this time it was 
  open badges 3.0 and and also increase interoperability and I put 
Kerri Lemoie:   This note in because it's somebody put this in 
  the notes and.
Kerri Lemoie:  It which is the most simplest way to explain 
  interoperability or itís to let language let's machine speak to 
  each other this all fits within our Charter BC edgy at the task 
  force to make be seized and Education data standards more aligned 
  more useful and any crease adoption and understanding and and I 
  think as you'll see at the plugfest we you know we scaled this 
  quite a bit and it was is.
Kerri Lemoie:   Really tremendous actually.
Kerri Lemoie:  What we did was we focus on these protocols and 
  the standard we focused on be Capi chappie which we will go into 
  a little bit o IDC did Combi to and then open badges 3.0 the top 
  three were protocol are protocols used to exchange and transmit 
  an issue verifiable credentials or to communicate in some.
Kerri Lemoie:   We're another especially.
Kerri Lemoie:  Which is a communication protocol a messaging 
  protocol and then also open badges 3.0 which we've spoken a lot 
  about in this call with this group because 3.0 actually sourced 
  from a decision made from this community to work with one edtech2 
  charter and deliver open badges 3.0 which aligns verifiable 
  credentials to that standard that is I think if I believe it.
Kerri Lemoie:   It is in candidate.
Kerri Lemoie:  Final or close to candidate final and and I will 
  be talking a little bit about that today too.
Kerri Lemoie:  Check the queue here great okay.
Kerri Lemoie:  So these are the requirements for the plugfest 
  issuers were required to issue a valid open badges 3.0 credential 
  to two different wallets and then while that's were required to 
  accept and display a valid batchly porno from two different 
  issuers they were all participants are required to use did 
  authentication and to display a valid open badge 3.0 they're 
  required to display I required we see fields which I don't have 
  listed here.
Kerri Lemoie:   We're bored.
Kerri Lemoie:  Issue an issuance date and proof achievement image 
  issuer name achievement name achievement description achievement 
  criteria and then optionally could be issue a logo or any other 
  optional Magic Properties or protocol specific Fields so we told 
  folks they could add whatever they wanted to do the open badge 
  they into the credential if they wanted to but the required 
  Fields were what we were looking for specifically then we asked 
  for videos that demonstrated the.
Kerri Lemoie:   Assurance and.
Kerri Lemoie:  The validation of open badges 3.0 and for the 
  videos the doesn't list here we ask that issue areas either 
  submit videos of their platforms issuing two wallets or that 
  while it's could submit to videos on behalf of those issuers and 
  as long as all those requirements from it then that would pass 
  passport was required for their participation I believe some of 
  this is still being reviewed but I'm demo day what.
Kerri Lemoie:   We did was review these videos and and talk 
Kerri Lemoie:  But their experiences.
Kerri Lemoie:  I don't go through I'm whole timeline but you can 
  see that we started in August and really honestly we started 
  talking about this at the end of plugfest one which is in June 
  and then we did the open call in August and through September we 
  set some deadlines and then the videos were due in November and 
  demo day was this past Monday on November 14th the day before I 
  had W in Mountain View California at the.
Kerri Lemoie:   Our history museum and we did it.
Kerri Lemoie:  I also did it virtually.
Kerri Lemoie:  How we communicated during the click best for 
  through direct emails to participants and we try to encourage if 
  you see I do you mail list as much as possible and that's what we 
  did for plugfest 14 for this podcast we decided we would set up 
  select channels per protocol which seemed to be honestly very 
  effective for most of the participants I think like some 
  drawbacks for that first of all they needed to be added to the 
  slack and then it meant that all the conversations happening.
Kerri Lemoie:   Being there were not happening on the BC edu 
  email list where.
Kerri Lemoie:  Benefit but it did give the members each of the 
  protocols abilities to just really work directly very quickly any 
  sickness I think another downside may have been that there were 
  some people who are on only one protocol and they weren't really 
  seeing the discussions happening on the other calls other other 
  select channels I mean.
Kerri Lemoie:  The demo day they said it was virtual and in 
  person I'm guessing about 150 attorneys between virtual and in 
  person might be a little bit above or below that but quite a few 
  people participated in the day we split it up into basically 
  three sections including lunch in there so we had demos to 
  discussions we broke it up into three different protocols and 
  then we did a debrief and then we had some lunch and.
Kerri Lemoie:  Some people stuck the second time for a while 
  longer even to talk more about ways that we could go forward.
Kerri Lemoie:  Man so I'll be the rest of the slides of go into 
  the rest of the demo day and how we went through this I want to 
  thank Manu from digital bizarre folks there Who provided some 
  slides and also we have sides I'm from the oid see crew and I 
  slow I grabbed a few here just to share what the experiences are 
  some of you may not have heard of chappie NBC API so I'm just 
  briefly that.
Kerri Lemoie:   Be Capi.
Kerri Lemoie:  A any PI that describes endpoints to issue an 
  exchange credentials and chappy is sort of the the connector the 
  the browser I'm someone's probably explain this better than I can 
  but the browser polyfill that makes it possible for wallets to 
  connect to issuers so it's sort of like the in-between 
  Communicator between issuers and wallet.
<kaliya> Still can’t here
Kerri Lemoie:   And the dish.
Kerri Lemoie:  Sorry folks made this great place for you to try 
  this out called the chappie playground the URL is on here at 
  chappie dot IO this ended up being immensely useful for many of 
  our participants because what we were able to do is have those 
  who had issuing apis and platforms they could connect on the 
  background in the background to the chap you playground and the 
  tabut playground could be used to choose the issuer and then 
  connect to the wallet that the.
Kerri Lemoie:   Tester would be a.
Kerri Lemoie:  You can see this is a pretty pretty remarkable 
  list of participants so they were 81 combinations they were 
  demonstrated not all of these were using and the chappie 
  playground there are some participants like participate in our 
  learning economy and DC and others who implemented chappie in 
  their own system but some many books use the chapter playground 
  for this so they're 81 combinations demonstrated 17 different.
Kerri Lemoie:   Issuers with 14 progress.
Kerri Lemoie:  Who just came in from the broader we see API 
  Community to join in and they're a different wallets five web 
  well it's and three native mobile apps.
<sheri_myrick-asu> Kaliya play around with sound with the arrow 
  next to your microphone.
Kerri Lemoie:  So these are the 81 combinations that were 
Kerri Lemoie:  I will get through this this whole movement 
  calling at the bingo bingo board but you can see that all of the 
  different platforms that worked with each other and that of 
  coordinated with each other either through choppy or through the 
  playground and this included doing did off too.
Kerri Lemoie:  Listen here for a minute.
Kerri Lemoie:  Actually before I move on is there anybody here on 
  the call that's what I want to talk about their experiences with 
  chappie and be Capi see if you view on here that were plugfest 
Kerri Lemoie:  I hope you don't mind but I'm going to call on 
Kerri Lemoie:  All right Julie Julie came from participate may I 
  call on you to tell you about your experience and we are teens 
  experience with this.
Julie_Keane: Sure well it was a it was a great experience because 
  we've been working with a bunch of different organizations that 
  have been thinking about more about adoption and we're very 
  excited to jump into something that would experiment with the 
  wallet we had a developer and created a Sandbox because our 
  actual learning platform our credentials didn't wouldn't you 
Julie_Keane:  we're only at the 2.1 spec for open badges so we.
Julie_Keane: Inbox and with the amazing team including carry and 
  James Dimitri were just incredibly super helpful as well as the 
  folks at LEF so it was it was really felt very seamless from my 
  perspective and I know that there was some problem solving but 
  again given the fastest Sprint it was just a really fun it was 
  really fun experiment and a really supportive community.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks Julie and the participate team so one of 
  the things that happened was we provided an example badge for The 
  participants to use and they could have chosen to use that badge 
  or use one of their own as long as it complied with the open 
  badges 2.0 spec and participate using actual badge from their 
  platform to do this and do you want to tell us a little bit about 
  that badge and the.
Julie_Keane: Yeah sure I mean yeah that seemed really obvious to 
  me from the beginning that we would create a Sandbox and then 
  kind of rebuild a badge in the sandbox and we chose black girl 
  Ventures because they were had been involved with them jobs for 
  the future New Sharon had been in some of their accelerator and 
  Mentor program and black our adventures just for background train 
  black and brown women of color who are starting businesses and 
  are trying to solve the problem of lack of.
Julie_Keane:  of access to Capital.
<phil_t3> I at least can't hear Julie's audio. Don't know if 
  others have that problem
<kerri_lemoie> Sorry for audio issues that some are experiencing.
Julie_Keane: Structural racism which verifiable credentials 
  probably can't solve but some of it is also just building 
  knowledge around ecosystems building business plans getting 
  access to Banks learning how to talk to Banks and VC all of those 
  things so this was a learning pathway that black girl Ventures 
  had developed they've had these credentials available in 
  participate for a year and a half so they've had hundreds almost 
  actually 1200 women trained through these learning pathways.
Julie_Keane:  and they are using those.
Julie_Keane: The platform but only Bell who is the CEO of lacquer 
  Adventures immediately saw the possibilities if they could get 
  pushed into wallets and so that's why we decided to actually use 
  an actual badge so that we would jump into an actual use case.
Julie_Keane: And so that's what we're trying to really explore 
  now is what are the next steps for she's very excited to figure 
  out the next steps like right away she has a lot of energy so 
  yeah trying to figure that out.
<sharon_leu> ha, julie, no vc's can't solve systemic racism! but 
  what an interesting tool.
Kerri Lemoie:  Excellent as great thanks Julie does anybody else 
  have anything else they'd like to say about their experiences 
  with chappie or be Capi.
Kerri Lemoie:  I'm going to move on to the next particle then we 
  did and also by the way once again feel free to jump in whenever 
  you'd like to add to this conversation the next protocol is oid 
  see I did put a link in the slides to the slides that were 
  provided for oid see because there's some great information in 
  there about how it works and I think that might be helpful and 
  actually grab these notes.
Kerri Lemoie:  From the sides and with that group did they they 
  demonstrate interoperability between 9 and dependent issuers and 
  it while in implementations and this included different 
  verifiable credential formats different crypto algorithms 
  different issue identifiers and did methods and also different 
  holder binding methods different did methods their their bingo 
  chart looks like this these are their results.
<julie_keane> agreed @sharon and these open tech tools really 
  provide avenues of access that can def support those fighting the 
  good fight.  :-)
Kerri Lemoie:  And here you can see who is connecting to who 
  issuer and then the wallet.
Kerri Lemoie:  David I still try to go see you on here would you 
  like to talk a little bit about your experience with a pie crust.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yes we can hear you go ahead.
David Chadwick:  Yes I will try another they're slightly not easy 
  but we'll see how can you hit the okay okay so basically the the 
  open ID connecting to in protocol allows the wallet and the 
  issuer to negotiate which format they're going to use so the 
  protocol supports I saw mobile driving license format its 
David Chadwick:   It's JW t.
David Chadwick:  Sign proof by publication formats into court 
  json-ld provide public credentials as well and so some of the 
  group use json-ld signatures and some of the group is JWT 
  signatures now course those two don't into work so that's why you 
  see two tables because of the proof former the different 
  participants were using as part of the ngi Atlantic project we 
  wrote a profile.
David Chadwick:   File for all.
David Chadwick:  That could be made from the very fabrication of 
  issuing protocol and then everybody more or less use that profile 
  with slight variations for the cryptographic algorithm and 
  obviously for the proof performer and it turned out to be very 
  successful as you can see and it proves that the protocol is 
  actually very flexible because it will support you know mobile 
  driving license as well as different forms of our family 
  credentials I think that's one of the strengths of the.
David Chadwick:   Falcon Shores fishing protocol it also.
David Chadwick:  Way of authenticating users using the oauth 
  protocol so that you know who is applying and you know it's not 
  just anybody can pick up any any particular verifiable credential 
  but after the authenticator I think that's all I wants a month if 
  any questions I'm happy to answer.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks David one of the questions I had for you 
  what words in the challenges you think that this group faced 
  while implementing for the plug press.
David Chadwick:  Yeah the challenges were that different people 
  that implements a different cryptographic algorithms differently 
  ID message Etc so in order to be able to interwork different 
  people have to do changes their implementation but they could 
  negotiate the same set so in our own particular case we ended up 
  supporting three different cryptographic algorithms whereas when 
  the when the plugfest started we could only support one 
  cryptographic algorithm so that.
David Chadwick:   And allowed us to talk to different different.
David Chadwick:  And I know somebody else altered idid method to 
  be able to talk to to ourselves so that was that was on the 
  experiences of the people involved the also we issued a number of 
  change requests on the up and idea connect protocol as a result 
  of the plugfest so that's another positive feedback that the 
  actual experimental results showed where clarifications or 
  omissions needed to be made to the open ID draft standard and.
David Chadwick:   And those most of those have been Incorporated 
  all there are still some.
David Chadwick:  Issues outstanding and we now we now sort of 
  addressing issues in the verification in preparation for plugfest 
Kerri Lemoie:  Excellent thank you David I really appreciate 
Kerri Lemoie:  Is there anybody that helps to has anything they'd 
  like to say about about working in this group or their own 
  experiences with oid see.
Kerri Lemoie:  Okay when we move on to the third group here which 
  was did Cam and I do have to apologize because I didn't have the 
  slides and time to prepare for this morning I did get them a 
  little while ago so I put a link to them here in the slide and I 
  can actually going to put a link to them.
Kerri Lemoie:  Chat for you.
Kerri Lemoie: 
Kerri Lemoie:  I'm in these slides right here are some videos and 
  demonstrations made by the did come group they are still working 
  on some of these implementations but it is is really worth 
  looking into is a really interesting kind of protocol that is 
  much newer than the no i.d. see of course and be Capi probably is 
  the second newest and then did come is the most recent.
Kerri Lemoie:   And I'm just going to read.
Kerri Lemoie:  Some of the bullets in one of these slides because 
  I think that you'd like to know these things about did Compass 
  probably you haven't had much experience with it so did come 
  messaging tells you how to use your did the sign and encrypt 
  messages for war one or more other digits with each of the 
  devices having different keys so it means that they did can send 
  messages to each other you can declare it usually did point with 
  the standard semantics you can.
Kerri Lemoie:   Has through.
Kerri Lemoie:  With high privacy you can verify the sender of a 
  message you can declare and handle the schema of a message so is 
  it very very unique way a new way to use the sidelines 
  identifiers to communicate with each other.
Kerri Lemoie:  It is like I said very new and so some of the 
  software being built for the plugfest was brand new and and it's 
  still going to be worked on for some time and so I think we will 
  hear more about that in the near future and I think what's great 
  about this is that it allowed this group to really see what was 
  needed to deliver a credentials from one did to another and see 
  what's needed there and and I think in many ways it Advanced that 
  work and also brought teams together to work on this.
Kerri Lemoie:   Or and all of that is just simply a fantastic.
Kerri Lemoie:  Like this even if we were only doing good time for 
  this breakfast.
Kerri Lemoie:  Or anybody here that is in that group that wants 
  to speak to this.
Kerri Lemoie:  This is a much smaller group I think shiny correct 
  me or to meet you in some when I think there are only maybe four 
  or five in this group.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I'm wondering if they cease Laura clear I was 
  wondering if I could call on him to speak to it a little bit.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yes nor are you available to do that.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I don't see him on here okay so maybe not.
<sharon_leu> That's right. Some of the participants in this group 
  also tried OIDC.
Kerri Lemoie:  I was down here okay.
Kerri Lemoie:  Well I would say tuned on this protocol you're 
  going to hear more about it in the near future and it's going to 
  it's really very interesting one.
Kerri Lemoie:  Three chairs or anything else you'd like to say 
  about it before I go van.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  No exactly exactly the same sentiment you said 
  keep an eye on this is really interesting it it's an ambitious 
  protocol that has some really cool communication properties and I 
  look forward to learning more about it.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah I'm to Simoni to have something.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Just something that that is related to 
  decom as much as they're there wasn't in that same level of 
  activity in this in this protocol Camp it really felt even in the 
  internet identity Workshop that did come was very promising and 
  there's a lot of work going into it as we speak and there's some 
  kind of excitement to see this protocol.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  Philip Moore.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): In fact I pick I picked up at iiw 
  announcement I think would last day that apparently see Kappa Sig 
  by is an organization very active in this space out of 
  Switzerland had donated libraries to did Cam and I think this is 
  a good signal because did come problem with lack some of the 
  development tools or even playgrounds or environment that made it 
  harder to build on it.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  so this is probably a good.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): And in a good signal for the future so 
  we look forward for more did calm side building in the near 
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you Jimmy chance money.
Kerri Lemoie:  Backwards here okay so here the time and so if you 
  are sightseeing and maybe we can get into a little bit of a 
  discussion these are some things that I listed as accomplishments 
  some of you may have many more things to this on the space on 
  your experiences what I notice is this was that there is a really 
  an increased experiential understanding of what it would actually 
  take tissue Beast used to wallet using available protocols.
Kerri Lemoie:   Meaning that we talked a lot about how it could 
Kerri Lemoie:  Um when we actually started developing code and 
  working with each other and making it happen many cases it was 
  very seamless because of the tools that some provided and many it 
  was you know we had other work to do no prep worms you to develop 
  tools to make this happen learn more about doing signatures we 
  had one group actually the participate group that develops some 
  of the some software for Ruby.
Kerri Lemoie:   Things that we didn't even have before.
Kerri Lemoie:  This is experience understanding as you know once 
  you try something you learn all sorts of new things and this was 
  a great accomplishment for this without a pledge fast we wouldn't 
  necessarily have so many vendors and individuals working together 
  trying to figure out something that was new to so many others.
Kerri Lemoie:   Secondly we.
Kerri Lemoie:  Relationships and many of us have been working in 
  the education credential e the system for a long time and then 
  many others have been working in the industry see space and did 
  space for other time and and applied class like this really 
  brought these groups together and also brought people together 
  who just had never met and known each other before and now we'll 
  continue to work together and have a have already set up calls 
  and meetings going forward and that's an incredible 
  accomplishment too.
Kerri Lemoie:   Thirdly we definitely Advanced the technology.
Kerri Lemoie:  We made it more accessible not to say that we 
  don't have some many more challenges there but we moved it 
  Forward right we're building upon Giants and we're building and 
  increasing this and we are making a lot of progress in that way 
  and that is also something that you do in the short time span 
  that we really spent on this is incredible and then also we 
  reveal challenges so we had a lot of hard lessons and we we 
  learned that what it is we need to think about next we may have.
Kerri Lemoie:   I've suspected that before but now we really 
Kerri Lemoie:  Of those significant challenges are.
Kerri Lemoie:  Before I move on to this when you see if there's 
  anybody here who would like to jump in on that some money you 
  first in the queue.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): All right yeah so as I was reflecting 
  on plugfest I think there have been a few interesting positive 
  externalities that is things that happened that were unexpected 
  but they were positive well in some were kind of known but just 
  to go through a list of things so it was I think one great 
  outcome here was that you know we really brought together we 
  showed interop across.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  two different standards development.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): W3c and one attack leveraging open 
  badges three was just a very delightful way of bootstrapping the 
  adoption of a new spec and your standard that is coming from one 
  attack so that was beautiful to see happen the other point was 
  that in the in the chappie camp what happened is that thanks to 
  the playground we have seen other players in the chat.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Realize that plugfest was was going on 
  and so they just jumped in and started to issue of a Majesty who 
  themselves I think this is an interesting unexpected outcome so 
  we had actually more participation participation beyond the 
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Also we introduced the new tools for 
  collaboration which is slack I think that proved very 
  constructive in terms of the community self organizing itself I 
  think that is something that we may want to keep going and 
  leverage for the future we've also developed an interesting new 
  set of tools or the playground chappies is certainly a good.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  ample with that lie.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Interrupt but also you know we leverage 
  work that existed the came from other projects David mentioned 
  the profile that were developed in the ngi ngi Atlantic project 
  you know that we're then leverage for plugfest also this plugfest 
  created the opportunity to provide feedback and so change request 
  both India the IDC camp but they're also have been issues logged 
  into the.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  open badges specification.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Great things that I think will advance 
  the ecosystem going forward I'd say that you know this is and 
  also last thing I would mention is that as much as most of this 
  interrupt displayed was in like a safe environment within a 
  playground environment there are also promising interrupt that we 
  showed with projects that have you know there are 
  production-ready in the are.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Particularly one that I'm involved in 
  is the my creds my credit is this National platform in Canada 
  where and you know at some point all the post-secondary 
  institutions are going to issue their digital diplomas through 
  the platform my credit is partnering with matter and so they 
  interrupted matter showed in this particular context really 
  speaks to the you know the possibility of taking this kind of 
  interpret ability to scale and in practice.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  right away so we're not just.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Or I think we just been this something 
  that has an impact.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I think that was kind of my list back 
  to you Kerry.
Kerri Lemoie:  Has a great list thank you Simone E Sharon you 
  have the floor.
<kerri_lemoie> Sharon_Leu
Sharon Leu:  I just have one quick like accomplishment that I 
  think is really important that I alluded to earlier is that in 
  education and in Workforce Development A lot of people have been 
  saying we should allow people to curate their own learning in 
  employment records and I think that nobody has been able to make 
  this happen outside of a closed very finite closed ecosystems and 
  I think that you know the interoperability against Open Standards 
  in this.
Sharon Leu:   Of open ecosystem.
Sharon Leu:  Is actually going to be what makes that possible and 
  I'm particularly excited because this has not been demonstrated 
  before so separate from the technology but the technology 
  enabling us to create tools that will I think we think help us 
  address some of our social impact questions so I'm very excited 
  about that element and I am done.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you Sharon Sharon Mario.
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> woot woot !
Manu Sporny:  Thanks so I found I mean the plugfest was fantastic 
  it was it was really great I think this is one of the it is the 
  most important interoperability demonstration of this year around 
  verifiable credentials in dids one thing that was really like 
  surprising to us in a in a really good way is we got to work with 
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> bravo!
Manu Sporny:  That we had never heard of before and while it's 
  that we had never heard of before in believe it or not like they 
  were able to achieve interoperability at least with you no 
  chappie and the chappie playground they were able to demonstrate 
  interoperability before we even talked with them like that's a 
  really good you know positive sign for the direction that you 
  know these various Technologies are going.
Manu Sporny:   Ang in so I.
Manu Sporny:  I wanted to stress the like the the notion that we 
  had organizations that had never worked with this technology 
  before VCS or dids and they were able to achieve build out and 
  Achieve build out against the standards and Achieve 
  interoperability in three to four weeks some of the other 
  organizations that we know of that's that have been in here for a 
  long time or able to do that as well and we were able to most 
  importantly pull in a.
Manu Sporny:   A whole bunch of new.
Manu Sporny:  Our platforms that demonstrated interoperability 
  through things like chappie and envy Capi you know ID for so that 
  that was also really nice to see I'm really excited about like 
  the next plugfest and how many more you know companies and 
  wallets and issuers in verifiers that we can pull into the mix 
  that's it for me.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you Martin who is great.
Kerri Lemoie:  I'm going to move on to our next time Malik 
  beaming over here by that you can't see me because I don't have 
  the camera on but I know that so many of us are working so hard 
  on this and it is really just making me so happy that we're all 
  making so much progress in the space.
<sharon_leu> Thank you, Manu, and Evan, and the others at DB that 
  worked on CHAPI playground. Would not have been nearly as easy 
  technically without it!
Kerri Lemoie:  These are some of the challenges that we 
  encountered I'm also these are just ones that I came up with I am 
  sure there are others that we could add to this list of others 
  would like you themselves up but just briefly one of the primary 
  challenges actually we had that was kind of an expensive one that 
  we're still navigating I think we're getting close to that one 
  edtech is a the open badges 3.0 contact changes and this wasn't 
Kerri Lemoie:   Sierra Leone one Ed Tech on their own it was 
  something that.
<manu_sporny> Sharon, Happy to help! We are dedicated to this 
  initiative! Really looking forward to the next plugfest!
Kerri Lemoie:  Didn't really occur to all of us because we hadn't 
  really operated together I'm in this kind of a coordinated way 
  before but what happens is json-ld uses something called the 
  context file that contains URLs and terms and the terms and the 
  URLs linked to information about those terms and if there are any 
  changes to those terms of the you or any added taken away or the 
  URLs are changed then it can cause some.
Kerri Lemoie:   Some mismatches between issuers and wallets.
Kerri Lemoie:  And this is.
Kerri Lemoie:  Because it's being platforms either load in the 
  context prior to issuing or some of them cash it so they had Lou 
  loaded loaded a previous version and issued a version of she's a 
  badge with that version cash then when it went to the wallet that 
  wallet was reading say more current version of or newer version 
  of the context or even a much older version there would be a 
Kerri Lemoie:  In this good Constitution signatures and so our 
  participants were tracking down these these issues right there 
  they're wondering why are we having all these signature errors 
  what could it possibly be spend hours and you're trying to 
  diagnosis until they checked it back down to the context file 
  because you know of course like you know diagnosing crypto errors 
  can be can be a challenging thing and so it took a while to 
  figure that out open badges the kind exile for open badges was 
<nate_otto_(he/him)> Can't speak on mic to it, but the 1EdTech 
  workgroup talked about the context changes at meeting on 
  Thursday, understands the issues, and is within a day or two of 
  being able to commit to a really stable context. Maybe with one 
  more well-reviewed-and-socialized change as the spec goes 
  final-final around February. This community should be aware of 
  that timeline. Now: context becomes quite stable (and wrists 
  slapped for a little bit of uncautious behavior this fall); 
  February: final-final.
Kerri Lemoie:  Where most of us were using that context file so 
  it's still cause some problems but it alleviated most of them and 
  now there are discussions going on about what those updates will 
  be going forward because there still will be changes since it it 
  is not a final spec yet so yeah we're in conversations about that 
  and I can put a link in the chat and a little while for an issue 
  that is listed in the GitHub repository where you can take a look 
Kerri Lemoie:   Make some comments in there if you have any 
  thoughts to that.
Kerri Lemoie:  And the next one was I we had a discussion about 
  who the issuer is and the assessor for an education credential 
  because it could be that a platform or or another body is doing 
  the signing of the credential on behalf of the assessor so they 
  may not always be the same same bodies and we knew that would 
  that would be an issue so that came up a little bit in our 
  discussions at plugfest we all know that you know user experience 
  is something.
Kerri Lemoie:   We need to work on it.
Phil Long: +1 To Nate's comment on context file status
Kerri Lemoie:  Really talked a lot about how we need to bring 
  more users in you know we are technologists in groups we are all 
  working on this technology but we're not doing enough user 
  research and we need more of that in the space some actual 
  experience so that we can translate that into better usability 
  and then lastly on my list is trust Frameworks we talked quite a 
  bit about what those are in the space with this could be how you 
  know we need verifiers.
Kerri Lemoie:   To know that the issuer's actually have the.
Kerri Lemoie:  I want to say permission but Authority or what 
  have you to issue these credentials and what that means in 
  various contexts and so that led to some other great 
  conversations that are going on in the space about that.
Kerri Lemoie:  Type in the queue the queue is empty but I'm sure 
  there are others who may want to speak to other challenges that 
  they experienced that I did not hit yet.
Manu Sporny:  Yeah one of the challenges that that we hit was 
  just communication in the plugfest and I don't think this was we 
  couldn't have predicted the amount of like positive like the 
  number of people that were going to participate but we found that 
  a lot of our time at least digital bazaars time was spent kind of 
  communicating with various implementers and trying to get them 
  kind of aligned with what they.
Manu Sporny:   Were doing and in some.
Manu Sporny:  Trying to like teach them DCS and Ed's as things 
  were happening we think like the bulk of that is over but there 
  is this like in by in communication problem the slack Channel 
  helped with it a bit but I don't know how we can improve that you 
  know in the next go-around I think one of the challenges was 
  making sure that we had email addresses.
Manu Sporny:  The kind of the I don't know managers or Executives 
  at the company in and the people that were implementing like it 
  felt really important to have those two people in any contact 
  that we were doing and some of the challenge was just getting 
  that information from the the companies that were involved like 
  we need to talk to you about a technical thing who do we talk to 
  about that we had to kind of discover that as we went so for the 
  next plugfest it might help.
Manu Sporny:  Have a you know business contact or managerial 
  contact in primary technical contract contact for each 
  organization in case you need to like reach out and have a call 
  with them or an email discussion that's it.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you Maya makes sense.
Kerri Lemoie:  Okay we are nearing oh sorry I see that somebody 
  you are in the queue.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Yeah just to offset - comment in terms 
  of of the demon digital bizarre women going above and beyond you 
  know man who spoke about the the level of say coordination that 
  we took for for his team to build and to participate they really 
  you know went above the requirements and.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  and because of the.
Manu Sporny: +1 That's great to hear, Simone! :)
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Work that they put in we've heard 
  comments from participants saying exactly the opposite that in 
  fact it was very easy for them to coordinate and through the 
  playground they almost did not even know who was playing or or 
  interacting with them because that particular you know tool made 
  it very easy for them so they just could focus on the code and on 
  the coordination so again great great work on the.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  digital bizarre team thanks a lot 
  model you made.
<julie_keane> @Manu that def helped with our project (having a 
  tech lead and a bus lead).  I organized and made sure that tech 
  folks had stand ups when needed.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Very easy for others I do you invested 
  a lot alright.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah agreed thank you so much I had Dmitry.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yes I wanted to bring up for I think our main 
  challenge now is what to do for the next block past because we do 
  you have an extra plug that's coming up and so we've we've done a 
  couple of the really heavy lifting but the first first to plug 
  paths and then we've got a couple of options from which it does 
  we have some really good arguments from some of the implementers 
Dmitri Zagidulin:   This should be pics carefully because.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Participating about this isn't it's very 
  expensive for front of the mentor and then we want to keep that 
  in mind so.
<manu_sporny> Verifying! :)
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We're going to have and Sharon will say more 
  about this but obviously we're going to continue having 
  conversations on this I wonder if it makes sense or particular 
  we're too close to the time to hear ideas from the crown but I 
  just wanted to put it on the table into everyone's head start 
  thinking about the next one all right except it.
<sharon_leu> Most details of Plugfest 3 are TBD, including date, 
  context of interop, etc.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> exchange of meaningful 
<julie_keane> Oh you found it!!! Nice
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah I mean I think we do have time we have a few 
  minutes of folks went to stay on and talked about that before we 
  do this briefly I want to tell you that next steps we are going 
  to publish a list of the participant videos and we're also we 
  have a video from the demo day from RingCentral that is a pretty 
  huge and it's videos so we're processing that and trying to 
  figure out the best way to distribute it and also I don't have a 
  bullet on here but we were talking about how to do education 
Kerri Lemoie:   It's at least a Jew that I would love to pick up 
  that topic and a future call soon.
Kerri Lemoie:  With that why don't we open it up to discussion 
  questions and yeah ideas about what the focus for blood class 3 
  should be exact yourself up we have a couple minutes left where 
  we can do that.
Kerri Lemoie:  My name I will call on you please to verifying.
Manu Sporny:  Yeah so verifying right it's the it's the kind of 
  feels like the obvious thing that we need to close the whole Loop 
  to demonstrate a full and and flow so it would you know and it 
  feels it feels like we're ready to do that at least you know with 
  the the chappie playground and be Capi and that sort of thing so 
  it would be nice to have the Third plugfest.
Manu Sporny:   Have some aspect of verifying.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you Nick you're next.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Plus 12 that I'm verifying seems like the 
  next step in the round trip of a credential we've gotten it 
  issued in the right format and plugfest one we've gotten it sent 
  to the wallet and plugfest to and now may be time to send it from 
  the wallet on to the next step in its journey and then you know 
  like subsequent to that I think you brought up trust Registries 
  previously there's a lot of questions about like what does it 
  actually mean how do we rely on to understand what a credential 
  means but I think prerequisite to all that.
Nate_Otto_(he/him):  that is actually getting.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): System that will verify it and try and start 
  that process of making sense of it thanks.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you Nate and David I believe your last Nike 
  you see you can close us out for today.
Kerri Lemoie:  David a speaking we can't hear you.
Kerri Lemoie:  David Chadwick sorry.
Kerri Lemoie:  All right fortunately we can't hear David to do 
David Chadwick:  Sorry I'm working on my yeah I'm working on 
  mobile phone and it's different to laptop and finding the 
  microphone was a bit difficult so yeah so I just wanted to report 
  to the group that is part of the NGO Atlantic project that we're 
  running at the moment which finishes at 1st and December we're 
  now starting to do verification test so I can tell you the 
  roadmap that we are planning over the next couple of weeks that 
  God is first of all a simple verification where a request is sent 
  from the.
David Chadwick:   Lying party to the.
David Chadwick:  Late and the wallet produces a very powerful 
  presentation that makes that request and we are proposing to use 
  the disk presentation exchange specification for that to specify 
  the the vocab or presentation and then after that simple one 
  we're going to introduce trust Frameworks and we're going to do 
  that in two steps One is using the train trust framework which is 
  which was a product of the ssf lab set of projects in Europe by 
David Chadwick:   Hopper and so we're going to put.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> thanks all, congrats on huge 
  plugfest success!
<kerri_lemoie> Open Badges context versioning issue (your 
  comments welcomed. Will meet about it next week on Thursday): 
David Chadwick:  Both sprucing ourselves into that trust 
  framework and then we're going to if time permits use gain now 
  for those who don't have not heard of gain gain is another 
  project of the up and I open ID for foundation and that is 
  looking at connecting different trust Frameworks together because 
  it's recognized that there are many different trust Frameworks in 
  existence in the world in the academic community and in the 
  commercial world and again is trying to plug them all together 
  and it has a model for plugging them all together.
David Chadwick:   And this is to use a new draft standard from 
  the open ID foundation called.
David Chadwick:  A federation and so we're going to try and do 
  that and if we manage to do that it means that any anybody from 
  any Federation if they support gain should be connection be able 
  to connect on a global basis with anyone else so that's what 
  that's what we're proposing for verification.
<colin_reynolds,_ed_design_lab> THANK YOU ALL
Kerri Lemoie:  Now that's fast and David thank you very much for 
  sharing that that's it for our call today hope you all have a 
  great week for those of the u.s. who are celebrating have a Happy 
  Thanksgiving grateful for all of you very much take care.
<julie_keane> Thanks all!
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> :wave:
Received on Thursday, 22 December 2022 20:55:52 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thursday, 22 December 2022 20:55:53 UTC