RE: W3C Credentials CG Call Tues: mobile DL deck

This is a good real-world pressure test. The 12 principles elucidate the ideals that drive our thought process and work products, and provide a standard by which we judge ourselves. As stated in the introduction though it is not a compliance standard. As such it can be held as a contrast to other approaches, but shouldn’t *necessarily* be used to judge other approaches. As soon as we start saying yours is bad because it isn’t ours we’ve closed ourselves off to innovation, growth and potentially relevance. I’m totally open to arguments that non-alignment with Principle X makes external Project Y incompatible with our ideals, attention and work products but I would hope ‘lines in the sand’ positions would be few. I also believe ‘all or nothing’ stances are in general limiting.

 

From: Drummond Reed <drummond.reed@evernym.com> 
Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 6:27 PM
To: Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
Cc: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>; Credentials Community Group <public-credentials@w3.org>; Jim St.Clair <jim.stclair@lumedic.io>; dzagidulin@gmail.com
Subject: Re: W3C Credentials CG Call Tues: mobile DL deck

 

Agreed. I'd say the ISO mDL approach has issues with #3 and #8 as well.

 

On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 4:35 PM Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com <mailto:agropper@healthurl.com> > wrote:

Seems to me like ISO is in direct conflict with Principles #2 and #12.

 

On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 7:29 PM Drummond Reed <drummond.reed@evernym.com <mailto:drummond.reed@evernym.com> > wrote:

The ToIP definition of "design principles" is "a proposition or value that informs, guides, and constrains the design of a product, service, or system". ToIP is almost finished with a set of design principles for the ToIP stack — we should be ready to talk about them at IIW — but in terms of SSI, the work done a year ago on the Principles of SSI <https://trustoverip.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/ToIP-Principles-of-SSI.pdf>  are what I had in mind.

 

On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 4:03 PM Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com <mailto:agropper@healthurl.com> > wrote:

What’s the link between SSI and our “design principles? 

 

On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 6:56 PM Drummond Reed <drummond.reed@evernym.com <mailto:drummond.reed@evernym.com> > wrote:

I have to agree with Jim here. Whether we like them or not, the ISO mDL specs are a reality we have to deal with. And as I think the presentation of the UL team shows (I wasn't able to attend the CCG edition but they gave the same presentation to the ToIP Ecosystem Foundry Working Group two weeks ago), they are actively seeking to figure out how to co-exist/interoperate with the W3C VC specs.

 

So +1 to productive engagement that does NOT sacrifice our design principles.

 

=Drummond 

 

On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 2:39 PM Jim St.Clair <jim.stclair@lumedic.io <mailto:jim.stclair@lumedic.io> > wrote:

“As it stands, ISO collaboration seems like a good way for W3C and IETF to lose our way. “ 

…or get left behind. It’s up to the community to decide. 

 

Best regards,

Jim

_______________ 

 

Jim St.Clair 

Chief Trust Officer 

 <mailto:jim.stclair@lumedic.io> jim.stclair@lumedic.io | 228-273-4893 

Let’s meet to discuss patient identity exchange: https://calendly.com/jim-stclair-1

 

From: Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com <mailto:agropper@healthurl.com> > 
Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 3:58 PM
To: Jim St.Clair <jim.stclair@lumedic.io <mailto:jim.stclair@lumedic.io> >
Cc: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com <mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> >; Credentials Community Group <public-credentials@w3.org <mailto:public-credentials@w3.org> >; dzagidulin@gmail.com <mailto:dzagidulin@gmail.com> 
Subject: Re: W3C Credentials CG Call Tues: mobile DL deck

 

Pay-for standards should have no role in SSI because they are inaccessible to community-supported F/OSS.

 

IEEE has tried to split this baby with their privacy-inflected 7000 series. It’s a potential solution for ISO. As it stands, ISO collaboration seems like a good way for W3C and IETF to lose our way. 

 

- Adrian 

 

On Fri, Oct 8, 2021 at 3:11 PM Jim St.Clair <jim.stclair@lumedic.io <mailto:jim.stclair@lumedic.io> > wrote:

“+100
Pay-for-standards was a great idea..twenty years ago.”

…yeah, except we’re sitting here realizing our standard is being displaced by this new standard using the 20 year old model, so….

 

Best regards,

Jim

_______________ 

 

Jim St.Clair 

Chief Trust Officer 

 <mailto:jim.stclair@lumedic.io> jim.stclair@lumedic.io |  <tel:228-273-4893> 228-273-4893 

Let’s meet to discuss patient identity exchange:  <https://calendly.com/jim-stclair-1> https://calendly.com/jim-stclair-1

 

  _____  

From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com <mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> >
Sent: Friday, October 8, 2021 1:00:12 PM
To: dzagidulin@gmail.com <mailto:dzagidulin@gmail.com>  <dzagidulin@gmail.com <mailto:dzagidulin@gmail.com> >; Credentials Community Group <public-credentials@w3.org <mailto:public-credentials@w3.org> >
Subject: Re: W3C Credentials CG Call Tues: mobile DL deck 

 

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On 2021-10-08 19:46, Dmitri Zagidulin wrote:
> David Chadwick wrote:
>
>  > At the same time I advised the W3C VC WG about mDL and suggested that we could utilise their well developed protocols as we had none. But again that request fell on deaf ears.
>
> I suspect part of the issue here is just culture clash. All of us (most of us?) want as much wide interop as possible, and to respect prior art. However, for any given W3C WG member, the idea of paying $200 or whatever it is to just LOOK at the ISO spec... that's a hard sell.

+100
Pay-for-standards was a great idea..twenty years ago.

Anders

> Dmitri