- From: Drummond Reed <drummond.reed@evernym.com>
- Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 08:26:13 -0700
- To: Daniel Burnett <daniel.burnett@entethalliance.org>
- Cc: "Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)" <mwherman@parallelspace.net>, Pindar Wong <pindar.wong@gmail.com>, "Phillip D. Long" <phil@rhzconsulting.com>, Taylor Kendal <taylor@learningeconomy.io>, Steve Capell <steve.capell@gmail.com>, Heather Vescent <heathervescent@gmail.com>, "W3C Credentials CG (Public List)" <public-credentials@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAAjunnZ5gux8fxhm2sN-CgvyWHhUz4UWTt5wPUH0PkNBUdTnww@mail.gmail.com>
What Daniel said. (very nicely) On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 8:22 AM Daniel Burnett < daniel.burnett@entethalliance.org> wrote: > Interestingly, this is one of the reasons VCs were created: to avoid > defining an 'identity' and instead to allow a collection of > simultaneously-verifiable claims to be presented. In my mind this makes > 'identity' an emergent, and perhaps ephemeral, property that varies based > on the specific collection of claims provided. > > -- dan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web) <mwherman@parallelspace.net> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 30, 2021 10:27 AM > *To:* Pindar Wong <pindar.wong@gmail.com>; Phillip D. Long < > phil@rhzconsulting.com> > *Cc:* Taylor Kendal <taylor@learningeconomy.io>; Steve Capell < > steve.capell@gmail.com>; Heather Vescent <heathervescent@gmail.com>; W3C > Credentials CG (Public List) <public-credentials@w3.org> > *Subject:* RE: The "self-sovereign" problem (was: The SSI protocols > challenge) > > > So the “unique combination of garments” each of us chooses to clothe > ourselves in each day, in effect, becomes one of our Self-Sovereign > Identifiers? > > > > …a truly personal decentralized identifier? > > > > *From:* Pindar Wong <pindar.wong@gmail.com> > *Sent:* March 30, 2021 1:35 AM > *To:* Phillip D. Long <phil@rhzconsulting.com> > *Cc:* Taylor Kendal <taylor@learningeconomy.io>; Steve Capell < > steve.capell@gmail.com>; Heather Vescent <heathervescent@gmail.com>; W3C > Credentials CG (Public List) <public-credentials@w3.org> > *Subject:* Re: The "self-sovereign" problem (was: The SSI protocols > challenge) > > > > Thank you all for this very rich, thought provoking thread. > > > > From my end of the pond, in Hong Kong, I use a 'clothing' metaphor to > start policy level discussions. > > > > Typically the pitch starts around the notion of human dignity, leads to a > notion of 'nakedness' and observes that we are 'naked on the internet'. > > > > This moves to a discussion about how we wish to make the loom, for others > to weave the cloth that we digitally wear to clothe ourselves ( Hong Kong > has a long history in the 'rag trade') -- so that we can shape the > narrative around how we wish to be perceived by society. > > > > Should we lose this ability to shape the societal narrative around how we > wish to be perceived (i.e. naked), then this can be considered as a loss of > privacy and the associated happiness. > > > > While society will say will say whatever it likes about you, it should be > unequivocal what I said about myself. > > > > This, to cut a long story short, eventually leads to 'SAIDs' -- > Self-Administered Indexed Data' > > > > I leave it open what data is indexed -- particularly as I note that many > policy makers still unfortunately equate unique identifiers as a means to > index or access data about you. > > > > So to my eye, we are merely making tools for developers to ultimately > weave together our digital clothes -- so that we can choose when and what > we want to wear as we present ourselves to society. > > > > In doing so, I've tried to incorporate some beautiful ideas explained to > me by Nat Sakimura ... many years ago -- albeit fueled by too much 'saké' > taken late in the evening in a lovely soba-bar in Tokyo. > > > > I hope this imagery appeals to the poet programmers in all of us. > > > > Best, > > > > p. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > p. > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 10:44 PM Phillip D. Long <phil@rhzconsulting.com> > wrote: > > +1 to Taylor’s note below. This is very useful and offers some > opportunities to approach the goals of individual control of personal data, > even if steps along the way toward it are improvements but still fall short > of desired end point. As long as the risks are a stated clearly > improvements may fall short of perfection, but the reference point is > current practice. Advancing beyond that toward the goal is improvement. > > > > Cheers, > > Phil > > > > *Phillip Long, Ph.D.* > > *RHz Consulting, LLC.* > Inquire-Listen-Design-Prototype-Analyze-Repeat > e:phil@rhzconsulting.com > LinkedIn:http://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd/ > > — > > *T3 Innovation Network, LER Pilot Projects Community Manager* > e: phil@rhzconsulting.com, > SNS: Twitter/Telegram @RadHertz > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd > > > > On Mar 23, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Taylor Kendal <taylor@learningeconomy.io> > wrote: > > > > Sending appreciation for this thoughtful and probing thread -- > without question, it takes engineers *and* poets to create a world worth > living in. I too have been wrestling with SSI > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/taykendesign.medium.com/identity-and-agency-2020-and-beyond-ee804a7e35c6__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rE8yQb6cc$> for > the past few years, and this thread has added a useful new neural node to > my often foggy mental map :) > > > > w/ gratitude, > > > > -Taylor > > https://www.learningeconomy.io > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.learningeconomy.io__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rEAPsroPA$> > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 2:32 PM Steve Capell <steve.capell@gmail.com> > wrote: > > +1 > > > > The identity bit is challenging. On the other hand, I’ve never had a > problem selling the idea of verifiable credentials > > Steven Capell > > Mob: 0410 437854 > > > > On 23 Mar 2021, at 5:37 am, Heather Vescent <heathervescent@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > I know folks on this list love to be precise in their language... ah, > gotta love the engineer's mind. But I want to provide a futurist/poet's > perspective. > > > > As Manu wrote, and many of us know first-hand, there are socio-cultural > issues with the term "self-sovereign." It has baggage specifically from a > western individualist libertarian perspective. Some people use > "self-sovereign" with these assumptions attached, others fight against > those assumptions. The general business consensus is that that term > (self-sovereign) is too charged, and the interpretations people bring to > it, get in the way of communicating the benefits. (See Microsoft's first > whitepaper using Decentralized Identity & aside: I would have changed the > title of the Comprehensive Guide to SSI but it was already out there in the > world.) > > > > "Decentralized identity" is a *better* choice. Others use "self-asserted," > I think this has some of the same socio-cultural issues that > "Self-sovereign" has. (I did a survey asking specifically this question > about a year ago, but I have not done a detailed data analysis, so these > are off the cuff comments.) IMHO, the term that will describe the > technology we are creating (SSI/DI/SA/DIDs/VCs) hasn't been coined yet. And > even more controversial, I doubt it will be coined by anyone in this > community or an early adopter. > > > > Why? Because we are swimming in a world of biases - biases because we are > co-creators of the vision and technology of SSI. And we are hyper technical > in this community, which is not reflective of society at large. > > > > I don't think this is really a big deal. Use whichever term you like with > the appropriate caveats until the defining term comes along. Maybe take a > moment to get real with yourself on why you like that particular term. A > lot of people like the unconscious/challenging authority attributions of > "self sovereign." > > > > IMHO, making what we are doing/creating in this community more accessible > to outsiders, with their fresh view unadulterated by our years of > philosophical discussion is what will give us clarity on the potential > impact of our work here - which may lead to a better socio-cultural verbal > identifier. > > > > -H > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 22, 2021 at 9:22 AM victorsyntez <victorsyntez@gmail.com> > wrote: > > +100 to this perspective, especially #3. Many Asian countries and a > number of European countries consider community stability more important > than individual freedoms. We can't expect them to agree with the notion > that privacy and self-sovereignity of the digital identity is more > important that government oversight of the digital identity. > > > > Victor. > > > > Sent from my Galaxy > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com> > > Date: 2021-03-22 6:32 a.m. (GMT-08:00) > > To: public-credentials@w3.org > > Subject: The "self-sovereign" problem (was: The SSI protocols challenge) > > > > On 3/21/21 11:57 PM, Adrian Gropper wrote: > > Are we, as a community, being shy in using self-sovereign to describe > our > > perspective? > > My response below is for people that feel like the question above has an > easy > answer. I expect the following to be misconstrued or quoted out of context, > which is sad, but here goes; everything below is said without any value > judgements. > > Remember that not all nations and people of the world view > "self-sovereign" as > a purely positive thing. I'm not shy about using it, just very careful, and > tend to avoid it as it tends to distract focused conversations. > > To speak to at least three overly-broad categories, self-sovereign is not > viewed as an entirely positive thing among: > > 1. Authoritarian-leaning groups. > 2. Non-authoritarian sovereign governments. > 3. Non-western societies where the importance of the > individual is not placed above the importance > of the community. > > I don't think that anyone is here to support #1 above. #2 and #3 are why I > tend to be careful about using the word "self-sovereign". It's useful when > speaking to others that understand the nuance. It can be thoroughly > confusing > or shut down conversations with those that don't... and even when educated > about the nuances, the message doesn't land well with the latter two > groups. > > I end up doing far more damage control when the word "self-sovereign" is > included than if I just stick to "verifiable credentials and decentralized > identifiers". > > -- manu > > -- > Manu Sporny - https://www.linkedin.com/in/manusporny/ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/in/manusporny/__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rEa0kyzDM$> > Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. > blog: Veres One Decentralized Identifier Blockchain Launches > https://tinyurl.com/veres-one-launches > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tinyurl.com/veres-one-launches__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rES6vJb9w$> > > > > > -- > > Heather Vescent > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.heathervescent.com/__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rEtgLIz3g$> > > Co-Chair, Credentials Community Group @W3C > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.w3.org/community/credentials/__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rEzabYLFw$> > > President, The Purple Tornado, Inc > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/thepurpletornado.com/__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rEHAXil4E$> > > Author, The Secret of Spies > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/amzn.to/2GfJpXH__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rE6Cw2Vlg$> (Available > Oct 2020) > > Author, The Cyber Attack Survival Manual > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.amazon.com/Cyber-Attack-Survival-Manual-Apocalypse/dp/1681886545/__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rEi-E7rJA$> (revised, > Dec 2020) > > Author, A Comprehensive Guide to Self Sovereign Identity > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/ssiscoop.com/__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rESmABU9Y$> > > > > @heathervescent > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/twitter.com/heathervescent__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rEFN02kpM$> | > Film Futures > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/vimeo.com/heathervescent__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rEedNteGI$> > | Medium > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/medium.com/@heathervescent/__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rEIwjJ9Es$> > | LinkedIn > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.linkedin.com/in/heathervescent/__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rEsUFj1SU$> | > Future of Security Updates > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/app.convertkit.com/landing_pages/325779/__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!KB0Xnw6Trzx_kTTkM_SfV4gpjpR_zBp6w394cA15VDY4vw-fjiruve9ggsu455rEmFYgnDE$> > > > >
Received on Tuesday, 30 March 2021 15:26:39 UTC