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RE: The "self-sovereign" problem (was: The SSI protocols challenge)

From: Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web) <mwherman@parallelspace.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 20:49:11 +0000
To: Kim Hamilton <kimdhamilton@gmail.com>, Orie Steele <orie@transmute.industries>
CC: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, "Bill Claxton, NextID Founder & Operations Director" <williamc@nextid.com>, "public-credentials@w3.org" <public-credentials@w3.org>
Message-ID: <MWHPR1301MB20943D2A6D792EE8005FCF72C3629@MWHPR1301MB2094.namprd13.prod.outlook.com>
What we’ve gone through is an interesting experiment in Social Evolution …in terms of evolving a common set of tribal beliefs…

A #wanderer is someone who leaves their tribe to share their knowledge and wisdom with others; to later form a party of explorers to explore and conquer a common set of goals; and, even further on, create a clan, a band, a tribe, and a tribal society, a group of people who live and work together – a group of tribes organized around kinships.

To read more, check out: https://hyperonomy.com/2019/04/08/social-evolution-and-technology-adoption/


Michael

From: Kim Hamilton <kimdhamilton@gmail.com>
Sent: March 25, 2021 1:54 PM
To: Orie Steele <orie@transmute.industries>
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>; Bill Claxton, NextID Founder & Operations Director <williamc@nextid.com>; public-credentials@w3.org
Subject: Re: The "self-sovereign" problem (was: The SSI protocols challenge)

Thanks for the invitation Orie, I'll pile on.

As someone who once attempted to define "SSI" in a paper, and in the process realized it caused more problems than solutions -- conflating technologies, vaguely-aligned principles, and also misunderstanding of what tech can/should achieve in implementing the apparent goals -- I decided to only use the term "SSI" in scare quotes. It's a distraction to progress.



On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:44 PM Orie Steele <orie@transmute.industries<mailto:orie@transmute.industries>> wrote:
I'll just leave these here:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

- https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-expects-a-rise-in-scams-involving-cryptocurrency-related-to-the-covid-19-pandemic


I would love to live in a world where "crypto" didn't imply "currency" and where "sovereign" didn't imply disconnected from social and legal norms...

But sadly(?), we cannot control how language and culture evolve.

I think we can all agree that governments, corporations and their less common form people (US centric joke), all need identity, confidentiality, authentication and authorization in the digital age.

I personally find the term SSI brings almost as much baggage as ICO today... maybe it's time for us to find the SSI equivalent of DFI?

The message feels like it should be on twitter, not the ccg mailing list.

Apologies if my humor does not land well with you.

Regards,

OS



On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 7:57 AM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>> wrote:
I should really have said that VCs & DID *need not* be decentralized….but that doesn’t change things.

Bill I have to disagree with your statements below as _inherent_ to VC’s.  I agree they are properties that *can be* associated with a VC, but they don’t have to be.  I think the thing that has you “hung up” is statement #2:
> ownership privilege belongs to the identity owner and not the issuer (which 'breaks the silo')

That’s key to SSI, true.  However, as myself and other have pointed out, it is not key in any way to VCs which can be used with other types of identity.   And once you recognize/accept that, then the rest of your positions fall since they are all predicated on that single initial premise.

Leonard

From: "Bill Claxton, NextID Founder & Operations Director" <williamc@nextid.com<mailto:williamc@nextid.com>>
Organization: NextID Pte Ltd
Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 12:29 AM
To: "public-credentials@w3.org<mailto:public-credentials@w3.org>" <public-credentials@w3.org<mailto:public-credentials@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: The "self-sovereign" problem (was: The SSI protocols challenge)
Resent-From: <public-credentials@w3.org<mailto:public-credentials@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 12:27 AM

I have been following this discussion with interest.  I disagree that (paraphrasing Michael) only the register is decentralised and (quoting Leonard) VC and DID are *NOT* decentralized.  Here are some points of decentralisation which are inherent to VCs.

- the issuer may delegate data processing and production to one or more entities
- ownership privilege belongs to the identity owner and not the issuer (which 'breaks the silo')
- identity owners have autonomy over what VCs they share and with whom they are shared
- verification services can be created and operate independently of issuers
- relying parties can verify a VC without reference to the issuer (and without being tracked)

In brief - VC production, usage and verification are all decentralised regardless of whether a blockchain anchor is used to assure immutability.  I would add that VC storage is separate from a blockchain registry, and that storage can also be decentralised using IPFS or similar architectures.
Regards, Bill Claxton (williamc@nextid.com<mailto:williamc@nextid.com>)
LinkedIn, Facebook, Telegram, Slack, Skype, Twitter or Gmail: wmclaxton
SG Voice, Text or Whatsapp: +65-9012-4327
US Voice, Text or Voicemail: +1-415-797-7348

On 3/24/2021 11:04 AM, Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web) wrote:
Here’s some simple but precise wording that may appeal to some folks:

Digital Identity
A Digital Identity aggregates:

  1.  A Digital Identifier, and
  2.  Associated Digital Identity Data.

Decentralized Identity
A Decentralized Identity is a Digital Identity that is Verifiable.
A Decentralized Identity is often persisted in a Verifiable Data Register.

The only part that typically relates to decentralized infrastructure is the Verifiable Data Register.

Best regards,
Michael

p.s. Here’s a copy of the big picture that visually relates all of the above terms: https://hyperonomy.com/2021/03/23/tdw-glossary-the-big-picture/<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhyperonomy.com%2F2021%2F03%2F23%2Ftdw-glossary-the-big-picture%2F&data=04%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C1ab657c5eeef42f3e5b408d8ee7d638b%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C1%7C637521569606502247%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=Jh7W4mBK%2FN%2FOhn76hHp%2BTfay02dysQuXMJ7DF9a6QB4%3D&reserved=0>

From: David Waite <dwaite@pingidentity.com><mailto:dwaite@pingidentity.com>
Sent: March 23, 2021 7:50 PM
To: Jim St.Clair <jim.stclair@lumedic.io><mailto:jim.stclair@lumedic.io>
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com><mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>; Drummond Reed <drummond.reed@evernym.com><mailto:drummond.reed@evernym.com>; Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web) <mwherman@parallelspace.net><mailto:mwherman@parallelspace.net>; sankarshan <sankarshan@dhiway.com><mailto:sankarshan@dhiway.com>; W3C Credentials CG (Public List) <public-credentials@w3.org><mailto:public-credentials@w3.org>
Subject: Re: The "self-sovereign" problem (was: The SSI protocols challenge)

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 2:43 PM Jim St.Clair <jim.stclair@lumedic.io<mailto:jim.stclair@lumedic.io>> wrote:
“VC and DID are *NOT* decentralized.”

  1.  Isn’t the first word in DID decentralized?
The decentralization in DIDs conflates whether it means it represents infrastructural decentralization in terms of the impact on reliability of  a single point of failure (which just about every internet protocol has support for), or decentralization of authority - saying that the infrastructure is not run by a single organization but is rather a group of parties under a governance model.

In any case, there is nothing about DID itself that makes it more decentralized than your average other URI scheme - it is the DID methods which refer to systems which may be _depoyed_ in such a manner to have infrastructural and authority decentralization. For all I know, an arbitrary DID method might resolve through a PHP script running on a $35/yr hosting account.

The subject may choose to use a DID method that meets their requirements here (likely that 99.9% will only do so under guidance, the DID rubric document has way more text on this topic). Likewise issuers, verifiers and wallets may all choose to reject use of that DID method - supporting a new DID method has an unquantified security and reliability cost.

In terms of deploying "decentralized" technology, there is nothing about VCs or DIDs which mandates these concepts of decentralization, or even requires a deployment to _allow_ for decentralization. As an example, my employer or bank may restrict the DID subject to one they control so that I am unable to choose unaudited forms of validation.

Likewise, there are no DRM-like technical measures to extend a person's self-sovereignty outside of their own choice of interactions - a party may correlate the user by every piece of information they can get ahold of, defeat attempts to use distinct personas, and so on. The inverse is, there are no technical reasons you could not use existing protocols like OpenID Connect to implement a decentralized system that respects user's consent and control - Dick Hardt is attempting to do that with https://signin.org<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsignin.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C1ab657c5eeef42f3e5b408d8ee7d638b%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C1%7C637521569606512206%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=FAlElCrWlElaUAeLFrZAI4NFqgygtCcFX59ES3uwc%2BU%3D&reserved=0> as an example. The technology just may have limitations that you would not have with a newer protocol choice (as is always the case).

So basically:
- DIDs and VCs do not mandate organizational decentralization or infrastructural decentralization, and implying so both sets unrealistic expectations and is negatively impacting adoption
- Self-sovereignty is a societal/legal initiative and construct, not a technical one - but there are obviously aspects which make a particular technology a better fit for self-sovereignty.

-DW


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--
ORIE STEELE
Chief Technical Officer
www.transmute.industries<http://www.transmute.industries>

<https://www.transmute.industries>
Received on Thursday, 25 March 2021 20:55:46 UTC

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