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[MINUTES] W3C CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2021-07-26 12pm ET

From: W3C CCG Chairs <w3c.ccg@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 06:37:46 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <6102af2a.1c69fb81.220ba.92d3@mx.google.com>
Thanks to Phil Barker and Dmitri Zagidulin for scribing this week! The minutes
for this week's CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force telecon are now available:

https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2021-07-26-vc-education 

Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio from the meeting is available as well (link provided below).

----------------------------------------------------------------
CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Telecon Minutes for 2021-07-26

Agenda:
  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2021Jul/0251.html
Topics:
  1. Open Badges 3.0 Proposal Update
  2. Complex Credentials Breakout Group
Organizer:
  Kerri Lemoie
Scribe:
  Phil Barker and Dmitri Zagidulin
Present:
  Kerri Lemoie, Phil Barker, Nate Otto, Stuart Freeman, Kimberly 
  Linson, Colin, Matt Lisle, Dmitri Zagidulin, Colin Reynolds, 
  Learning Economy, Steve Gance, Marty Reed, Phil L (P1), Ozgur Y, 
  Simone Ravaioli (Digitary), Adam Lemmon, Jim Goodell, Taylor 
  Kendall
Audio:
  https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2021-07-26/audio.ogg

<matt_lisle> fyi there were a couple of folks in the mit zoom
<matt_lisle> i'll pop back in and let 'em know
Kerri Lemoie: https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/join
Kerri Lemoie: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/
Kerri Lemoie: 
  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dxjsfu1MDPlfb5Q3Ry-KEDYX2gj5WNkFqw1esyki-sQ/edit#
<phil_barker> phil_barker scribing
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Here's how to scribe [scribe assist by Kerri 
  Lemoie]
Kerri Lemoie:  Any introductions? [scribe assist by Phil Barker]
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Reintroduction. s/w engineering working creds 
  and digital ID, with digital bazaar and MIT DCC, stepping in to 
  some on Kim's roles [scribe assist by Phil Barker]
Kerri Lemoie: https://osn21.e-attend.com/
Kerri Lemoie:  Announcement OSN21 summit on rich skill 
  descriptors this week [scribe assist by Phil Barker]

Topic: Open Badges 3.0 Proposal Update

<phil_barker> ... presentation last week to IMS. Will be meeting 
  with IMS Open Badges & IMS CLR teams. More updates in couple of 
  weeks

Topic: Complex Credentials Breakout Group

<phil_barker> ... Marty to give update on complex credentials 
  work.
<phil_barker> Marty Reed: Phil Long will do intro
<phil_barker> ... Randa have been work on more complex 
  credentials
Phil Barker: Phil_L: problem statement: represent complexity of 
  real-world credentials, in practical, pragmatic way
<phil_barker> ... worked from examples, tried to break them down
Phil Barker is scribing.
  ... looked at what needs to be signed? where  do they need to 
  "live"? how to preserve learner/worker agency? how to respect 
  expectations of issuer?
  ... two examples: licensure & EU Diploma Supplement
  ... for diploma supplements existing solution could be CLR with 
  OCP
Marty Reed:  CLR more complex than Badge because has multiple 
  layers. Has concept of acheivement, which in Diploma Supplement 
  is diploma itself.
  ... also includes Alignments to frameworks, Assertions, 
  Evidence
  ... diagram of how to map content of diploma supplement & 
  JSON-LD strawman example
  ... Assertions = Claims, i.e. that Diploma has been awarded
  ... Open Credential Publisher shows this information as 
  acheivement and assertions, from multiple institutions
Nate Otto:  What use cases for bundling assertions that are 
  independently verifiable? What does bundling/unbudnling do with 
  respect to cryptographic signing?
<nate_otto_(@ottonomy)_badgr/csky> Oh you got me already thx
Marty Reed:  We package all assertions as a single credentials so 
  that don't have to provide new definition everytime number of 
  assertions are changed.
Nate Otto:  So cannot embed multiple assertiosn into one 
  credetnial
Phil_L: no, you can, but forcing factor is economics of cost and 
  fees of blockchain environment.
  ... you can sign individual components but it gets really large
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Phil_L - I can take over at any point
Marty Reed:  BBS+(?) allows signing of whole and individual, but 
  haven't seen that yet. Hasn't been flesged out
@Dmitri, over to you
Dmitri Zagidulin is scribing.
Dmitri Zagidulin is scribing.
Kerri Lemoie:  Can you compare your implementation to how LERs 
  are implemented?
  ... we talked about LERs in the spring a bit, but not everyone 
  is familiar
Marty Reed:  So, the entire assertion is signed, with LERs
  ... what we've done is AND'd it -- both the CLR is signed, AND 
  individual assertions are signed
  ... and it's up to the holder wallet to decide how those 
  assertions are sent to the verifier
  ... if the OCP wants to repackage assertions, then it's 
  actually a self-published assertion/credential
Nate_Otto_(@ottonomy)_Badgr/CSky: you had an interesting point 
  about BBS+
  ... about selective disclosure of individual assertions
Dmitri Zagidulin is scribing.
  ... doesn't that require all assertions to be issued by the 
  same issuer?
  ... is a complex credential a bundle of creds from multiple 
  issuers?
  ... or can it have multiple issuers?
Marty Reed:  That's still to be defined
  ... this diploma use case was nice in that it has a single 
  issuer.
Marty Reed:  My hope, especially from perspective of licensure
  ... is that we can use BBS+
  ... there's always the last mile problem -- how does the 
  verifier want that dat?
  ... for example, as Orie mentions, you /always/ present it as a 
  Verifiable Presentation (never a standalone VC)_
  ... so, lots to be learned / figured out still
  ... one thing to mention - in other implementations, we have 
  samples of an Open Badge as an assertion
  ... and so, the alignment of CLR and OB should align here, in 
  VC Edu work
Phil_L_(P1): in the EU, given the Bologna Accord, a transcript 
  can have multiple issuers
  ... so this use case has to be able to properly reflect that
  ... part of the challenge here is that the CLR as a framework 
  doesn't have the concept of a Presentation like VC/VP does
  ... so, one of our challenges is to figure out how (or whether) 
  we can have a Presentation concept. (which is important, 
  particularly in terms of the agency of the Holder)
  ... so, we need to figure out how to bring it together
Ozgur_Y: a key component of the CLR is the Association, which 
  defines rel'ship between Achievements
  ... was that included in the model?
Marty Reed:  No, but that's a good point
Ozgur_Y: I think that last week we discussed how a single 
  credential can be represented, in the Open Badges WG. Here, we're 
  trying to represent multiple credentials
  ... so, we should try to align the two, see how we can 
  represent multiple VCs in the same structure
  ... so then, the only component missing would be Associations
Dmitri Zagidulin:  That's exactly what a Verifiable Presentation 
  is for - to bundle multiple VCs in one package
Phil Barker:  One way of dealing with the diploma use case, is 
  that -- it is from a single issuer (whoever issued the Diploma 
  Supplement)
  ... but it also contains info from other issuers
  ... we can represent the trust / attendance relationships with 
  simple VCs
  ... so, one approach to multiple issuers is to ask - are they 
  actually issuers of the credential, or do they supplement or 
  provide additional information? (without issuing it)
Marty Reed:  Each assertion, in this context, is its own VC.
  ... and then the entire package is a VC as well. that adds bulk 
  / complexity, we recognize that
  ... but it also solves these multiple problems
Kerri Lemoie:  There's a concept, with CLRs, of Issuer, vs 
  Publisher. Can you describe the difference?
Ozgur_Y: The Issuer is basically to create the credential. The 
  Publisher is just displaying it / providing the environment to 
  present it online
Kerri Lemoie:  So, for a VC version of a CLR, would you still 
  have both a Publisher and Issuer roles?
Ozgur_Y: Yes, you'd need both
  ... for instance, Aphis (?) is a publisher software
  ... as a learner, I receive credentials from multiple issuers
  ... and they've all been gathered and moved to a specific 
  environment where it's now published
  ... so I can display all the credentials I've gathered in my 
  lifetime
Phil_L_(P1): I think one of the things to note here - in some 
  sense, it's the way in which the concept of the Presentation has 
  been interpreted, for the CLR
  ... because anything that is assembled (other than directly 
  from the issuer), in the CLR world, is a Self-Published 
  Credential
  ... in the context of a Presentation, the assembly of those 
  different things is the work of the Holder and their wallet. They 
  obviously retain the issuer signatures, to guarantee authenticity
  ... in my view, it's kind of enabling the notion of 
  presentations without necessarily the full notion of a wallet
  ... so it may be just a historical decision
  ... but there's a clarity, in the use of a VP, that is achieved 
  by emerging wallet, so we may want to leverage
Phil_L_(P1): the VP concept is interesting, I just haven't seen 
  examples of it, so we just went without it in the moment
  ... but I'm following with interest the work of the VC HTTP API 
  group, to see how the VP is interpreted from the Verifier 
  viewpoint
  ... so, we want to meet the market where it's at, and then 
  iterate forward
Kerri Lemoie:  So what do you think is the next step, wrt complex 
  credentials and VCs?
Marty Reed:  From a WG standpoint, we want to explore more the 
  relationship between VC and VP
  ... my hope is that we continue with the Diploma Supplement 
  usecase
  ... because it's such a substantial use case, it brings 
  international perspective (to what some have seen as  a very 
  US-centric field)
  ... so, the hope there is that - we have this perfect UC from 
  an international perspective, and if we implement it, it'll 
  fulfill the US use case too
  ... we've had a lot of spirited debate around the multiple 
  issuer problem of a complex credential. Also, the economics (of 
  accumulator-based ledgers like Indy) or complex credentials, 
  should not be dismissed
Phil_L_(P1): The work that you and Nate have done, in terms of 
  thinking through the credential, in the context of a 
  single-assertion Badge,
  ... and how that might be leveraged as a core element of a 
  multiple assertion environment, is something we should take into 
  equal account
  ... it gives a good starting point for a majority of use cases
  ... and then we can also reconcile it with multi-issuer use 
  cases
Kerri Lemoie: Ack: Ozgur_Y
Ozgur_Y: I'd like to support Phil's idea. It's a natural path, to 
  finalize a single credential, and then a multiple credential 
  bundle can just be based on that structure
  ... so, have a single pathway to adoption
  ... once you handle the multiple credential use case, adding 
  the Association notion will unite the two structures together
Marty Reed:  I also want to third that support for the work that 
  Concentric Sky, Nate, Kerri, have done with that structure
  ... the workstreams inform each other well
  ... there's 43 million badges issues. we have 19 million more 
  complex credentials in our system, so there's definitely a market 
  need
  ... for both
  ... but both of them aligning well, and informing each other, 
  is really the way to go
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you, Marty, Phil, and everybody for all your 
  questions. appreciated
  ... I was wondering if folks have ideas for the next few calls' 
  topics to be
  ... we don't have anything queued up just yet. so, any 
  requests?
  ... feel free to put it in the chat, or email me
<marty_reed> revisit the use cases list
<kerri_lemoie> klemoie@concentricsky.com
  ... also, we may want to change the meeting time. (not until 
  mid- or end of August)
  ... anybody else have other questions/items for today?
Marty Reed:  When I first joined this VC Edu WG, Kim's work for 
  defining use cases -- I think revisiting that would be super 
  valuable
<nate_otto_(@ottonomy)_badgr/csky> Thanks for the presentation 
  today, Marty and Phil. +1 to understanding what the use cases are 
  for complex credentials, specifically in terms of 
  consumption-side use cases.
  ... the entire group has done some work on this, and developed 
  some examplars, so, revisiting would be very valluable
Kerri Lemoie:  That would be great, I like that idea
https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-ed-use-cases/issues
Kerri Lemoie:  To submit a use case, either follow the GitHub 
  issue template, or I have a Google Form somewhere, that makes it 
  even easier
Kerri Lemoie: 
  https://docs.google.com/forms/d/15I9qzi-_F5G-ZjSJKLzgJZsJUv8JSvLlcxFNjE0uEcc/edit
  ... so, next week, we'll revisit those use cases
Phil_L_(P1): I think the UC notion is really important. and it's 
  useful, in that context, to think about super-groups of Use Cases 
  as types
  ... since one of our challenges is providing rationales to 
  institutions, for other things than a single-issuer blob
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you, all!
<colin_reynolds,_learning_economy> Thanks Kerri!
Received on Thursday, 29 July 2021 13:38:01 UTC

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