Re: [Agenda] W3C Credentials CG Call Tues, Aug 10, 9am PT, 12pm ET, 5pm GMT, 6pm CET / 6AM+1 NZDT

Drummond, please explain why the first example of the meeting request for your concepts and terminology WG for a meeting dated last week August 2, 2021 was still being sent out by ToIP. If it is/was failing, why are you still sending out these (good) hybrid meeting requests?


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________________________________
From: Drummond Reed <drummond.reed@evernym.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 7, 2021 12:08:09 PM
To: Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web) <mwherman@parallelspace.net>
Cc: Andrew Hughes <andrewhughes3000@gmail.com>; Brent Zundel <brent.zundel@evernym.com>; Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io>; W3C Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>
Subject: Re: [Agenda] W3C Credentials CG Call Tues, Aug 10, 9am PT, 12pm ET, 5pm GMT, 6pm CET / 6AM+1 NZDT

Michael, ironically your #proofbycontradiction fails because the very system you cite failed. The calendar invite you have to the bi-weekly ToIP Concepts and Terminology WG meeting is a legacy of a system the ToIP Foundation abandoned. In the early days ToIP tried to handle calendar management using Groups.io mailing lists and Google Calendar invites. But as ToIP grew it ran into the exact problems Andrew Hughes explained and so it abandoned the calendar invite approach in favor of the exact solution Andrew articulated: a public calendar than members can subscribe to or just refer to for meeting info: https://wiki.trustoverip.org/display/HOME/Calendar+of+ToIP+Meetings.

#proofbyexperience

=D

On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 9:30 PM Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web) <mwherman@parallelspace.net<mailto:mwherman@parallelspace.net>> wrote:

RE: Having administered dozens of working groups in several membership and volunteer organizations, I have not found a universal solution to the problem of using simple calendar clients where the meeting attendees are a group list



#proofbycontradiction



Drummond, are you a chair of the following ToIP concepts and terminology working group?



This WG has a calendaring solution that supports textual meeting requests with .ICS attachments. See below.

[cid:17b21c88e594ce8e91]








So does DIF  …I don’t know if they are the same platform or not.  Clearly there are inclusive solutions CCG could be using for meeting management.



[cid:17b21c88e595b006a2]





Best regards,

Michael Herman

First Principles Thinker (https://hyperonomy.com/2021/03/10/first-principles-thinking/)

Far Left Self-Sovereignist



Self-Sovereign Blockchain Architect

Trusted Digital Web

Hyperonomy Digital Identity Lab

Parallelspace Corporation



[cid:17b21c88e596917eb3]









From: Drummond Reed <drummond.reed@evernym.com<mailto:drummond.reed@evernym.com>>
Sent: August 6, 2021 10:30 AM
To: Andrew Hughes <andrewhughes3000@gmail.com<mailto:andrewhughes3000@gmail.com>>
Cc: Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web) <mwherman@parallelspace.net<mailto:mwherman@parallelspace.net>>; Brent Zundel <brent.zundel@evernym.com<mailto:brent.zundel@evernym.com>>; Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io<mailto:mprorock@mesur.io>>; W3C Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org<mailto:public-credentials@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: [Agenda] W3C Credentials CG Call Tues, Aug 10, 9am PT, 12pm ET, 5pm GMT, 6pm CET / 6AM+1 NZDT



+100, Andrew. You've administered enough community calendars to know.



On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 9:08 AM Andrew Hughes <andrewhughes3000@gmail.com<mailto:andrewhughes3000@gmail.com>> wrote:

(avoiding flame wars, cliques, as hominem, etc)



Having administered dozens of working groups in several membership and volunteer organizations, I have not found a universal solution to the problem of using simple calendar clients where the meeting attendees are a group list. The issues Brent listed are real. The disconnection of people who have a preference of email/calendar clients is real as well.



The best I've encountered so far is to have a centrally managed calendar that allows subscription, with links to a single page containing all agendas appended each time, and many many repeated instructions (links in every email and standing document) for each individual to subscribe to the calendar. That way the burden of managing local collisions is on the subscriber to manage however they choose, and not solely on the administrator who is unable to know or predict how each individual's software choice will interact with the system.



On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 8:31 AM Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web) <mwherman@parallelspace.net<mailto:mwherman@parallelspace.net>> wrote:

Brent,



Many of us use standard email clients like Microsoft Outlook and use them to literally run our personal as well as corporate lives.  They all understand one flavor or another of .ICS calendar files.  These appointments and meeting requests automatically cancel, can be automatically updated, etc. etc.  Most groupware (except for maybe the Google services) support them.



There’s millions of us …maybe a billion. By not supporting this every-day form for meeting management, we’re effectively being excluded.  Hence, the reference to #cliquism.



Michael





From: Brent Zundel <brent.zundel@evernym.com<mailto:brent.zundel@evernym.com>>
Sent: August 6, 2021 8:21 AM
To: Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web) <mwherman@parallelspace.net<mailto:mwherman@parallelspace.net>>
Cc: W3C Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org<mailto:public-credentials@w3.org>>; Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io<mailto:mprorock@mesur.io>>
Subject: Re: [Agenda] W3C Credentials CG Call Tues, Aug 10, 9am PT, 12pm ET, 5pm GMT, 6pm CET / 6AM+1 NZDT



Michael,



You ask a good question, though it is poorly framed. Providing an "(industry standard) meeting request" to a mailing list that somehow also invites each individual on the mailing list, that works easily with everyone's preferred calendar system, that is simple to update as participants change, and that automatically updates each participant's calendar as the original event changes, is not a simple problem.



You not being helped when folks are trying to be helpful, is not their problem. You being rude and accusatory to them in response is a problem.

Assuming there is something you haven't been given because you "aren't in the club" is silly. The meeting organizers are doing their best to get everyone the information they need. If you feel that a specific mechanism for providing that information might work better for you and others in the group, you are welcome to propose your specific solution.



On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 10:38 PM Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web) <mwherman@parallelspace.net<mailto:mwherman@parallelspace.net>> wrote:

CORRECTION: Why are these meeting notices *not* being sent out as proper (industry standard) meeting requests? More clichism?

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________________________________

From: Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web) <mwherman@parallelspace.net<mailto:mwherman@parallelspace.net>>
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 10:35:27 PM
To: W3C Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org<mailto:public-credentials@w3.org>>; Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io<mailto:mprorock@mesur.io>>
Subject: Re: [Agenda] W3C Credentials CG Call Tues, Aug 10, 9am PT, 12pm ET, 5pm GMT, 6pm CET / 6AM+1 NZDT



Why are these meeting notices being sent out as proper (industry standard) meeting requests?  More clichism?

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________________________________

From: Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io<mailto:mprorock@mesur.io>>
Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 6:02:49 AM
To: W3C Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org<mailto:public-credentials@w3.org>>
Subject: [Agenda] W3C Credentials CG Call Tues, Aug 10, 9am PT, 12pm ET, 5pm GMT, 6pm CET / 6AM+1 NZDT



TL;DR: WACI-PEx (from DIF), CCG Process

NEXT MEETING:
1. What is WACI-PEx, project status, alignment with CCG projects - Brent Zundel, Orie Steele, Juan Caballero
2. Discussion on CCG Process, consensus, and next steps to avoid issues in the future - Mike Prorock

Tuesday, Aug 10rd 2021
Time: Tuesdays, at 9am PT, Noon ET, 5pm GMT, 6pm CET / 6AM+1 NZDT
(see: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html?iso=20210810T160000&p1=tz_pt&p2=tz_et&p3=tz_cest&p4=tz_bst)

Text Chat:
      http://irc.w3.org/?channels=ccg
      irc://irc.w3.org:6665/#ccg<http://irc.w3.org:6665/#ccg>

Jitsi Teleconf:
      https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/weekly

Voice:
     US phone: tel:+1.602.932.2243;1

We are working on SIP dial-in and international phone numbers.

Duration: 60 minutes

MINUTES FROM LAST MEETING:
https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/

MEETING MODERATOR: Michael Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io<mailto:mprorock@mesur.io>>
PROPOSED AGENDA:
1. Agenda Review (2 minutes)
2. IP Note: (1 minute)
Anyone can participate in these calls. However, all substantive contributors to any CCG Work Items must be members of the CCG with full IPR agreements signed. https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/join
    a. Ensure you have a W3 account: https://www.w3.org/accounts/request
    b. W3C COMMUNITY CONTRIBUTOR LICENSE AGREEMENT (CLA): https://www.w3.org/community/about/agreements/cla/
3. Call Notes (1 minute)
    a. These minutes and an audio recording of everything said on this call are archived at https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/
    b. We use IRC to queue speakers during the call as well as to take minutes. http://irc.w3.org/?channels=ccg or http://irc.w3.org:6665/#ccg or the Jitsi text chat.
    c. All attendees should type “present+” to get your name on the attendee list in the transcript.
    d. In IRC type “q+” to add yourself to the queue, with an optional reminder, e.g., “q+ to mention something”. The “to” is required.
    e. If you’re not on IRC, simply ask to be put on the queue.
    f. Please be brief so the rest of the queue get a chance to chime in. You can always q+ again.
    g. NOTE: This meeting is held by voice, not by IRC. Off-topic IRC comments are subject to deletion from the record. We work hard to manage a single thread of conversation so everyone can participate and be heard. Please respect the group process by joining the queue when you have something to contribute.
4. Scribe Selection (2 minutes)
We need a volunteer to scribe. Scribe List: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LkqZ10z7FeV3EgMIQEJ9achEYMzy1d_2S90Q_lQ0y8M/edit?usp=sharing
5. Introductions & Reintroductions (5 minutes --> :11) (see scribe doc for reintroduce column)
6. Announcements & Reminders (2 minutes)
https://w3c-ccg.github.io/announcements/
7. What is WACI-PEx, project status, alignment with CCG projects - Brent Zundel, Orie Steele, Juan Caballero (35min+)
8. Continuing last week's discussions regarding CCG (meta) and discussion of issues arising in some work groups, and how we avoid them (10min)

9. General Q&A and Discussion (any remaining time)



Mike Prorock

CTO, Founder

https://mesur.io/






--

Brent Zundel, Evernym

Principle Cryptography Engineer

--

Andrew Hughes CISM CISSP
In Turn Information Management Consulting
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5043 Del Monte Ave,, Victoria, BC V8Y 1W9
AndrewHughes3000@gmail.com<mailto:AndrewHughes3000@gmail.com>
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