Re: Self-sovereign == incompatible? (was Re: Feedback on Zoom & Jitsi for CCG Meetings)

My definition of self-sovereign technology is based on medicine. I use
OpenAPS https://openaps.org/ as an example of self-sovereign technology and
the importance of standards as well as Free software. An artificial
pancreas system has four components: (i) continuous glucose monitor; (ii)
insulin pump; (iii) logic that connects (i) to (ii); and (iv) insulin. Of
these four components, three require input of significant capital
investment for efficient production. The fourth is logic, described as
software, and the main input is knowledge gained by decades of
participation by patients and physicians in what we call medicine. The role
of capital investment in medical knowledge is relatively limited, to
schools and publishing, and these are often not-for-profit.

To enable safe and effective progress on the logic, the glucose monitor,
pump, and insulin SHOULD have standardized interfaces AND the logic,
including increasingly important machine learning / AI, SHOULD be free from
licensing encumbrances. OpenAPS is a particularly clear example because it
illustrates the difference between centralized FDA regulation of the
glucose monitor, pump, and insulin and decentralized regulation of the
physicians that advise patients along with the total lack of regulation of
what self-sovereign patients can do for themselves. As we introduce
technology across all of medicine, including ML/AI, this distinction will
spread. The current practice of attempting to sell proprietary black-box
logic as medicine is unsustainable in the face of self-sovereign technology
that does the same thing.

As far as paying with time and money to develop standards, I agree with you
and I certainly do myself. But once the standards are developed, they need
to be Free so others can choose to 'pay' with their money and their risk of
harm into a continuous learning process without capital barriers.

The scope of self-sovereign technology is very small today, but I believe
it will continue to grow.

- Adrian


On Sun, Nov 15, 2020 at 8:40 AM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
wrote:

> >To be self-sovereign means that you don't need to license software or
> standards as part of your community activities.
>
> >
>
> I guess this is the “super strict” definition of self-sovereign – because
> it also implies that you are OK being incompatible with the rest of the
> world and just want to do your own thing.
>
>
>
>
> >For this reason, I try to avoid referencing pay-to-see standards from
> ISO, IEEE, the American Medical Association, etc...
>
> >These put up access barriers that lock out the Free and open source
> software communities that are essential to self-sovereign technology
>
> >
>
> You do know that if you were willing to “pay” with your time and
> participate in the development of those standards – then they are free,
> right?    Either you pay with $$ or you pay with time – that seems quite
> fair to me.   And that is true with ALL standards bodies – including the
> W3C – where you need to pay ($$) to be a voting member of a working group
> that develops standards.
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
> *Date: *Friday, November 13, 2020 at 7:02 PM
> *To: *Steve Capell <steve.capell@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Heather Vescent <heathervescent@gmail.com>, Manu Sporny <
> msporny@digitalbazaar.com>, "W3C Credentials CG (Public List)" <
> public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Feedback on Zoom & Jitsi for CCG Meetings
> *Resent-From: *<public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Friday, November 13, 2020 at 6:59 PM
>
>
>
> We are not just another standards group. I think there's a larger issue
> here because we are working on self-sovereign standards. To be
> self-sovereign means that you don't need to license software or standards
> as part of your community activities. For this reason, I try to avoid
> referencing pay-to-see standards from ISO, IEEE, the American Medical
> Association, etc... These put up access barriers that lock out the Free and
> open source software communities that are essential to self-sovereign
> technology. I have participated in more than one group where we had to seek
> special favor from IEEE or ISO in order to share access to a standard that
> the group wanted to reference and potentially design in or out.
>
>
>
> Whatever we do with Zoom vs. Jitsi, I hope we keep in mind other
> self-sovereign communities and groups that will want to build on what we
> have started.
>
>
>
> Adrian
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 5:15 PM Steve Capell <steve.capell@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Heather & Manu
>
>
>
> Whilst it is certainly true (to heathers point) that the primary purpose
> is developing open DID and VC standards, it is also important to engage all
> contributors. And since there is often some correlation between enthusiasm
> for open standards and enthusiasm for open source, i think it sends the
> right message to prefer open source where practical.
>
>
>
> Personally I’m not fanatical about it and would use either.  But I’m
> certainly happy to use jitsi etc if it means the work effort can retain
> valuable contributions from those that do have stringer feelings.
>
>
>
> To Manus questionnaire I’d say I don’t have capacity to contribute
> maintenance effort but am certainly willing to substitute some small
> financial support of say $1000/ year
>
>
>
> Kind regards
>
> Steven Capell
>
> Mob: 0410 437854
>
>
>
> On 14 Nov 2020, at 9:29 am, Heather Vescent <heathervescent@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Manu,
>
>
>
> I sincerely appreciate the work you have done to make Jitsi feasible, but
> I have to think you may have lost sight of the purpose of the community,
> which is to focus on VCs and DIDs and credentialing technology, not
> re-build infrastructure. I will simply copy a comment someone shared with
> the chairs:
>
>
>
> "I don't think it's important to use an open tool like Jitsi. Zoom is
> fine. We're not the group that's building an open teleconference platform;
> we're the group that's building DIDs and VCs. We don't have a problem using
> PDFs (a proprietary format); why should we have a problem using a
> proprietary teleconference tool?"
>
>
>
> I am committed to making this group and our work items accessible to the
> broadest community. I refuse to allow us to get distracted re-inventing the
> wheel.
>
>
>
> We have bigger fish to fry, especially if we are going to be serious about
> increasing global participation.
>
>
>
> -Heather
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 1:21 PM Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
> wrote:
>
> On 11/12/20 6:32 PM, Heather Vescent wrote:
> > The chairs are gathering feedback about using Zoom and Jitsi for our
> > regular Tuesday CCG call.
>
> The poll does ask the community what their preference between the two
> conferencing systems is... and the "volunteer to maintain Jitsi" is
> misleading -- it's really "volunteer to maintain the CCG
> infrastructure", which includes a variety of things other than Jitsi
> (which shouldn't take a lot of effort once things are stable). I don't
> know why Jitsi maintenance will take 2-12 hours a month if the system
> works?
>
> I expect the outcome is that most of us will show up no matter what
> system is used because we value the discussion over the infrastructure.
> I also expect that it will be difficult for people to volunteer to
> "maintain Jitsi" just as it will be difficult for people to volunteer to
> "maintain the CCG infrastructure" -- it's a vague ask.
>
> Can we please reword the survey so we can capture people's preferences
> on our infrastructure?
>
> Some suggestions:
>
> 1. How often do you attend the Tuesday CCG meeting?
>
> 2. Given equivalent functionality, do you prefer to use an open
>    source or closed source for our video conferencing system?
>
> 3. Given equivalent functionality, do you prefer to use an open
>    standards or proprietary solution for our video conferencing
>    system?
>
> 4. What features are important to you in a video
>    conferencing solution?
>    * Works in my Web browser
>    * Native client
>    * Stability
>    * Phone-based dial-in
>    * SIP and VoIP connection options
>    * Accessibility
>    * Other: ____________
>
> 5. Are you willing to volunteer to maintain the tooling
>    that the CG uses to hold meetings and generate
>    meeting minutes (jitsi, scribe tool, system administration,
>    documentation)?
>
> 6. Are you willing to financially support the CG tooling?
>    * No
>    * Yes, $25/year
>    * Yes, $50/year
>    * Yes, $100/year
>    * Yes, $___/year
>
> 7. If you plan to volunteer, please list the things
>    you feel comfortable helping with:
>    * Server Maintenance
>    * Software Maintenance / Coding
>    * Minute Cleanup/Publishing
>    * Updating Documentation
>    * Other: ____________
>
> The above would give us a better idea of preferences in the community.
>
> -- manu
>
> --
> Manu Sporny - https://www.linkedin.com/in/manusporny/
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>
> --
>
> Heather Vescent
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