Re: Propose vc-examples-registry work item.

Orie -- would you be able to discuss this at the next CCG meeting?
Work item proposal tracking: https://github.com/w3c-ccg/community/issues/111

The only thing we need for it to become a work item is another "owner", but
I don't expect that will be a problem.

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 11:10 AM Kim Hamilton <kimdhamilton@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Many of us in the VC-EDU task force are huge fans of bridge approaches
> like did:web where appropriate. So don't worry, you're not alone. For
> various reasons many of us using these approaches tend to (unfortunately)
> be a little less active in mailing list discussions. :)
>
> On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 10:55 AM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> wrote:
>
>> And I assume that something like `did:git` or `did:github` (
>> https://github.com/decentralized-identity/github-did), both of which are
>> listed in the DID Method Registry (
>> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-registry/) also fall into that “no
>> simple yes/no”.
>>
>>
>>
>> > Nevertheless, the original intention of the whole DID work remains to
>> enable identifiers that can be created and used without a central authority.
>> >
>>
>> I get that.  But that doesn’t mean that it has to be the current
>> intention.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would put forth that (in reference to what the NOTE in the introduction
>> of spec says) **we need a bridge** between the two models (Centralized &
>> DeCentralized).  As someone implementing general support for identity
>> references in an open system, having multiple ways to refer to/store an
>> identity is going to make me choose just one…and to be honest, since the **vast
>> majority** of identities today are in centralized systems – I’ll pick
>> that one.
>>
>>
>>
>> What I believe we should be working towards – and I think that DID
>> addresses – is a model/standard for serialization of an identity reference
>> (DID URI Scheme & data model) and resolution (DID Methods) of that
>> serialization into something useful (DID documents).  And guess what – that
>> is EXACTLY what the WG Charter says the mission of the DID WG is:
>>
>>
>>
>> The mission of the Decentralized Identifier Working Group
>> <https://www.w3.org/2019/did-wg/> is to standardize the DID URI scheme,
>> the data model and syntax of DID Documents, which contain information
>> related to DIDs that enable the aforementioned initial use cases, and the
>> requirements for DID Method specifications.
>>
>>
>>
>> But as above, I **strongly** believe that it has to work for all types.
>> I am willing to put my (and my company’s) time & $$ to make that happen.
>>
>>
>>
>> Leonard
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Markus Sabadello <markus@danubetech.com>
>> *Date: *Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 9:34 AM
>> *To: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, Orie Steele
>> <orie@transmute.industries>, "Joosten, H.J.M. (Rieks)" <
>> rieks.joosten@tno.nl>
>> *Cc: *"daniel.hardman@evernym.com" <daniel.hardman@evernym.com>, "W3C
>> Credentials CG (Public List)" <public-credentials@w3.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: Propose vc-examples-registry work item.
>>
>>
>>
>> We have had this discussion a few times before.
>>
>> Yes it is technically possible to define DID methods based on centralized
>> systems (e.g. the not-really-serious did:facebook method
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fpeacekeeper%2Fdid-method-facebook%2Fblob%2Fmaster%2Fdid-method-facebook.md&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812147749&sdata=FpKbAHKz2VbJ88OSQTPnSXxUgXZvsI24Yw5WjMM3IoE%3D&reserved=0>
>> ).
>> There are many DID methods where there is no simple yes/no answer if they
>> are "decentralized" or not (e.g. the did:web method)
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c-ccg%2Fdid-method-web&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812147749&sdata=uIr7VA%2BvEXyRWeVhlVoGsMdmDwFAxYxofTOfz0T%2BzH0%3D&reserved=0>
>> .
>>
>> Nevertheless, the original intention of the whole DID work remains to
>> enable identifiers that can be created and used without a central authority.
>>
>> This is reflected in various places in the DID WG charter
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2019%2F09%2Fdid-wg-charter.html&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812157697&sdata=794A6LPqVSOuUjcMAQy6tOch2uSVuu27QnJ0WjMCdPs%3D&reserved=0>
>> and the DID Core
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fdid-core%2F&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812157697&sdata=JSyVSsjrti9euYRG810c5sqVIveFRD%2BLyY%2BfqCHu4LY%3D&reserved=0>
>> spec.
>> Attempts to change this will likely result in significant resistance.
>>
>> Regarding the use of the term "distributed ledger", personally I feel
>> it's worth keeping that, since this is the technology that originally
>> enabled DIDs and continues to be very important for it, even if not
>> required. The DID Core spec currently uses the term "DID registry" for the
>> thing where DIDs exist. Note that there is an open Github issue
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fdid-core%2Fissues%2F162&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812167653&sdata=9IvB9gnkNF%2FltZGQrfy3fLPIFRlNDqaXYebbjXM5pTA%3D&reserved=0>
>> for discussing alternative terms that may be a better fit.
>>
>> Markus
>>
>> On 3/18/20 10:58 PM, Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
>>
>> I would be happy to do that…and I think it can be done w/o too much
>> argument.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is one other issue that Steve raises that we may also want to
>> consider….which I am pretty sure is going to have stepping into a HUGE moat
>> of alligators…Changing what the first ‘D’ in DID stands for.  It is indeed
>> confusing to have a standard around Decentralized things that also supports
>> Centralized things.
>>
>>
>>
>> Could we change that ‘D’ to something like “Dedicated” or “Distributed”
>> or ??
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, is this the right mailing list to discuss changing the DID spec
>> on?  Is there a DID WG or related group and/or list??
>>
>>
>>
>> Leonard
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Orie Steele <orie@transmute.industries>
>> <orie@transmute.industries>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, March 18, 2020 at 4:05 PM
>> *To: *"Joosten, H.J.M. (Rieks)" <rieks.joosten@tno.nl>
>> <rieks.joosten@tno.nl>
>> *Cc: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> <lrosenth@adobe.com>,
>> "daniel.hardman@evernym.com" <daniel.hardman@evernym.com>
>> <daniel.hardman@evernym.com> <daniel.hardman@evernym.com>, "W3C
>> Credentials CG (Public List)" <public-credentials@w3.org>
>> <public-credentials@w3.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: Propose vc-examples-registry work item.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'd welcome a PRs that removed the concept of ledgers from the did core
>> spec entirely... its an answer to "How" it belongs in the implementation
>> guide, it does not belong in the did core spec IMO.
>>
>> OS
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 11:01 AM Joosten, H.J.M. (Rieks) <
>> rieks.joosten@tno.nl> wrote:
>>
>> I guess I fell for the suggestions in the spec that emphasize ledgers. I
>> based my statement on texts such as the following from the current spec
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812167653&sdata=EMKrmQbdxgu8BvVIXjD7oJp8VpBJfbfiRI%2FDJSJ2kEc%3D&reserved=0>
>> :
>>
>>    - Chapter 1, Introduction, paragraph 2 (entire text) states that DLTs
>>    provide the opportunity for fully decentralized identity management, and
>>    further elaborates on this, thereby strongly suggesting a focus on DLT's. I
>>    agree that this does not imply the converse.
>>    - Chapter 1, Introduction, paragraph 4: "DID methods
>>    <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F%23dfn-did-methods&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812177610&sdata=gDp3OMWVD4INiqkLvZiGBTu%2Bzte7f7KdA6JFfJLXxmA%3D&reserved=0>
>>    are the mechanism by which a DID
>>    <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F%23dfn-decentralized-identifiers&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812177610&sdata=n%2FPkJNGZOZXMLOniPpxdvd2K8OYpEhMfAagC7%2BFhOWs%3D&reserved=0>
>>    and its associated DID document
>>    <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F%23dfn-did-documents&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812177610&sdata=mDHiSGufWEfnl%2BoF3YvwXziAz41QsYBA%2B%2Fyjgu2i6cA%3D&reserved=0>
>>    are created, read, updated, and deactivated on a specific distributed
>>    ledger
>>    <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F%23dfn-distributed-ledger-technology&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812187565&sdata=BiKCAaC%2BqdtVrjms77R3GeMmMdYgsTWTa1KVefFmYNY%3D&reserved=0>
>>    or network." The 'or network' is the escape here that seems to allow for
>>    different things than ledgers, but what that would mean does not become
>>    clear from the text itself.
>>    - Chapter 2, Terminology, decentralized identifier (DID): "A globally
>>    unique identifier that does not require a centralized registration
>>    authority because it is registered with distributed ledger technology
>>    <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F%23dfn-distributed-ledger-technology&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812197522&sdata=LlKyOu5ybAPVmkptIQtfoJais1DRqawONwVxMqdVjg0%3D&reserved=0>
>>    (DLT) or other form of decentralized network." Same as previous bullet.
>>    - Chapter 2, Terminology, DID method): " A definition of how a
>>    specific DID scheme
>>    <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F%23dfn-did-schemes&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812197522&sdata=ROIlvKr2XZcL%2FPDYApVrtgdIw1TDYT3qXwzFfNbmX%2Bg%3D&reserved=0>
>>    can be implemented on a specific distributed ledger
>>    <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F%23dfn-distributed-ledger-technology&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812207478&sdata=4OUxDEkrH3256oAW9hRwXvgjXAmPO%2FCms7u4O7Q1%2Bks%3D&reserved=0>
>>    or network". Same as previous bullet.
>>
>> So you are right, while the use of DLT-stuff is (strongly) suggested by
>> the standard, it is not required.
>>
>>
>>
>> With respect to
>>
>>    - > the DID-stuff aims to enable interaction (communication) with the
>>    entity identified by the DID
>>    - That’s also not something that I see mentioned anywhere in the DID
>>    spec.  Can you please quote a source?
>>
>> That's the 4th sentence of the Abstract.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rieks
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>> *Sent:* woensdag 18 maart 2020 13:31
>> *To:* Joosten, H.J.M. (Rieks) <rieks.joosten@tno.nl>;
>> daniel.hardman@evernym.com
>> *Cc:* Orie Steele <orie@transmute.industries> <orie@transmute.industries>;
>> W3C Credentials CG (Public List) <public-credentials@w3.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: Propose vc-examples-registry work item.
>>
>>
>>
>> > And rightfully so since the core DID spec  explicitly states that
>> DID-stuff belongs on DLTs
>>
>> >
>>
>> I think you need to re-read the spec again, as that is clearly *NOT* the
>> case.
>>
>>
>>
>> Right in Section 1 (Introduction), the first note is very clear on the
>> topic:
>>
>>
>>
>> NOTE: DID methods can also be developed for identifiers registered in
>> federated or centralized identity management systems. Indeed, all types of
>> identifier systems can add support for DIDs. This creates an
>> interoperability bridge between the worlds of centralized, federated, and
>> decentralized identifiers.
>>
>>
>>
>> > the DID-stuff aims to enable interaction (communication) with the
>> entity identified by the DID
>>
>> >
>>
>> That’s also not something that I see mentioned anywhere in the DID spec.
>> Can you please quote a source?
>>
>>
>>
>> Leonard
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *"Joosten, H.J.M. (Rieks)" <rieks.joosten@tno.nl>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, March 18, 2020 at 4:27 AM
>> *To: *"daniel.hardman@evernym.com" <daniel.hardman@evernym.com>, Leonard
>> Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>> *Cc: *Orie Steele <orie@transmute.industries>, "W3C Credentials CG
>> (Public List)" <public-credentials@w3.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: Propose vc-examples-registry work item.
>>
>>
>>
>> And rightfully so since the core DID spec  explicitly states that
>> DID-stuff belongs on DLTs. Also, according to the same spec (see the
>> abstract), the DID-stuff aims to enable interaction (communication) with
>> the entity identified by the DID, which is quite different from schemas.
>>
>>
>> So why specify that you need a DID to refer to a schema if we can
>> generalize this to a URI? Doing so does not exclude DIDs since they are a
>> specialization of URIs so you can still use the examples.
>>
>> Rieks
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *Van:* Daniel Hardman <daniel.hardman@evernym.com>
>> *verzonden:* woensdag 18 maart 2020 01:32
>> *Aan:* Leonard Rosenthol
>> *Cc:* Orie Steele; W3C Credentials CG (Public List)
>> *Onderwerp:* Re: Propose vc-examples-registry work item.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a clear bias there towards DIDs (and VC’s in general) that are
>> based on ledgers of some fashion.
>>
>>
>>
>> Touché. :-)
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *ORIE STEELE*
>>
>> Chief Technical Officer
>>
>> www.transmute.industries
>> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.transmute.industries%2F&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812207478&sdata=NaXidWsHJOr%2BeBbJQZCi4WkDGl53ZJ8mm5Gx3yjW86U%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
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>