Re: Propose vc-examples-registry work item.

Many of us in the VC-EDU task force are huge fans of bridge approaches like
did:web where appropriate. So don't worry, you're not alone. For various
reasons many of us using these approaches tend to (unfortunately) be a
little less active in mailing list discussions. :)

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 10:55 AM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
wrote:

> And I assume that something like `did:git` or `did:github` (
> https://github.com/decentralized-identity/github-did), both of which are
> listed in the DID Method Registry (
> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/did-method-registry/) also fall into that “no
> simple yes/no”.
>
>
>
> > Nevertheless, the original intention of the whole DID work remains to
> enable identifiers that can be created and used without a central authority.
> >
>
> I get that.  But that doesn’t mean that it has to be the current intention.
>
>
>
> I would put forth that (in reference to what the NOTE in the introduction
> of spec says) **we need a bridge** between the two models (Centralized &
> DeCentralized).  As someone implementing general support for identity
> references in an open system, having multiple ways to refer to/store an
> identity is going to make me choose just one…and to be honest, since the **vast
> majority** of identities today are in centralized systems – I’ll pick
> that one.
>
>
>
> What I believe we should be working towards – and I think that DID
> addresses – is a model/standard for serialization of an identity reference
> (DID URI Scheme & data model) and resolution (DID Methods) of that
> serialization into something useful (DID documents).  And guess what – that
> is EXACTLY what the WG Charter says the mission of the DID WG is:
>
>
>
> The mission of the Decentralized Identifier Working Group
> <https://www.w3.org/2019/did-wg/> is to standardize the DID URI scheme,
> the data model and syntax of DID Documents, which contain information
> related to DIDs that enable the aforementioned initial use cases, and the
> requirements for DID Method specifications.
>
>
>
> But as above, I **strongly** believe that it has to work for all types.
> I am willing to put my (and my company’s) time & $$ to make that happen.
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *Markus Sabadello <markus@danubetech.com>
> *Date: *Thursday, March 19, 2020 at 9:34 AM
> *To: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, Orie Steele
> <orie@transmute.industries>, "Joosten, H.J.M. (Rieks)" <
> rieks.joosten@tno.nl>
> *Cc: *"daniel.hardman@evernym.com" <daniel.hardman@evernym.com>, "W3C
> Credentials CG (Public List)" <public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Propose vc-examples-registry work item.
>
>
>
> We have had this discussion a few times before.
>
> Yes it is technically possible to define DID methods based on centralized
> systems (e.g. the not-really-serious did:facebook method
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fpeacekeeper%2Fdid-method-facebook%2Fblob%2Fmaster%2Fdid-method-facebook.md&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812147749&sdata=FpKbAHKz2VbJ88OSQTPnSXxUgXZvsI24Yw5WjMM3IoE%3D&reserved=0>
> ).
> There are many DID methods where there is no simple yes/no answer if they
> are "decentralized" or not (e.g. the did:web method)
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c-ccg%2Fdid-method-web&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812147749&sdata=uIr7VA%2BvEXyRWeVhlVoGsMdmDwFAxYxofTOfz0T%2BzH0%3D&reserved=0>
> .
>
> Nevertheless, the original intention of the whole DID work remains to
> enable identifiers that can be created and used without a central authority.
>
> This is reflected in various places in the DID WG charter
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2019%2F09%2Fdid-wg-charter.html&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812157697&sdata=794A6LPqVSOuUjcMAQy6tOch2uSVuu27QnJ0WjMCdPs%3D&reserved=0>
> and the DID Core
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fdid-core%2F&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812157697&sdata=JSyVSsjrti9euYRG810c5sqVIveFRD%2BLyY%2BfqCHu4LY%3D&reserved=0>
> spec.
> Attempts to change this will likely result in significant resistance.
>
> Regarding the use of the term "distributed ledger", personally I feel it's
> worth keeping that, since this is the technology that originally enabled
> DIDs and continues to be very important for it, even if not required. The
> DID Core spec currently uses the term "DID registry" for the thing where
> DIDs exist. Note that there is an open Github issue
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fdid-core%2Fissues%2F162&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812167653&sdata=9IvB9gnkNF%2FltZGQrfy3fLPIFRlNDqaXYebbjXM5pTA%3D&reserved=0>
> for discussing alternative terms that may be a better fit.
>
> Markus
>
> On 3/18/20 10:58 PM, Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
>
> I would be happy to do that…and I think it can be done w/o too much
> argument.
>
>
>
> There is one other issue that Steve raises that we may also want to
> consider….which I am pretty sure is going to have stepping into a HUGE moat
> of alligators…Changing what the first ‘D’ in DID stands for.  It is indeed
> confusing to have a standard around Decentralized things that also supports
> Centralized things.
>
>
>
> Could we change that ‘D’ to something like “Dedicated” or “Distributed” or
> ??
>
>
>
> Also, is this the right mailing list to discuss changing the DID spec on?
> Is there a DID WG or related group and/or list??
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *Orie Steele <orie@transmute.industries>
> <orie@transmute.industries>
> *Date: *Wednesday, March 18, 2020 at 4:05 PM
> *To: *"Joosten, H.J.M. (Rieks)" <rieks.joosten@tno.nl>
> <rieks.joosten@tno.nl>
> *Cc: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> <lrosenth@adobe.com>,
> "daniel.hardman@evernym.com" <daniel.hardman@evernym.com>
> <daniel.hardman@evernym.com> <daniel.hardman@evernym.com>, "W3C
> Credentials CG (Public List)" <public-credentials@w3.org>
> <public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Propose vc-examples-registry work item.
>
>
>
> I'd welcome a PRs that removed the concept of ledgers from the did core
> spec entirely... its an answer to "How" it belongs in the implementation
> guide, it does not belong in the did core spec IMO.
>
> OS
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 11:01 AM Joosten, H.J.M. (Rieks) <
> rieks.joosten@tno.nl> wrote:
>
> I guess I fell for the suggestions in the spec that emphasize ledgers. I
> based my statement on texts such as the following from the current spec
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812167653&sdata=EMKrmQbdxgu8BvVIXjD7oJp8VpBJfbfiRI%2FDJSJ2kEc%3D&reserved=0>
> :
>
>    - Chapter 1, Introduction, paragraph 2 (entire text) states that DLTs
>    provide the opportunity for fully decentralized identity management, and
>    further elaborates on this, thereby strongly suggesting a focus on DLT's. I
>    agree that this does not imply the converse.
>    - Chapter 1, Introduction, paragraph 4: "DID methods
>    <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F%23dfn-did-methods&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812177610&sdata=gDp3OMWVD4INiqkLvZiGBTu%2Bzte7f7KdA6JFfJLXxmA%3D&reserved=0>
>    are the mechanism by which a DID
>    <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F%23dfn-decentralized-identifiers&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812177610&sdata=n%2FPkJNGZOZXMLOniPpxdvd2K8OYpEhMfAagC7%2BFhOWs%3D&reserved=0>
>    and its associated DID document
>    <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F%23dfn-did-documents&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812177610&sdata=mDHiSGufWEfnl%2BoF3YvwXziAz41QsYBA%2B%2Fyjgu2i6cA%3D&reserved=0>
>    are created, read, updated, and deactivated on a specific distributed
>    ledger
>    <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F%23dfn-distributed-ledger-technology&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812187565&sdata=BiKCAaC%2BqdtVrjms77R3GeMmMdYgsTWTa1KVefFmYNY%3D&reserved=0>
>    or network." The 'or network' is the escape here that seems to allow for
>    different things than ledgers, but what that would mean does not become
>    clear from the text itself.
>    - Chapter 2, Terminology, decentralized identifier (DID): "A globally
>    unique identifier that does not require a centralized registration
>    authority because it is registered with distributed ledger technology
>    <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F%23dfn-distributed-ledger-technology&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812197522&sdata=LlKyOu5ybAPVmkptIQtfoJais1DRqawONwVxMqdVjg0%3D&reserved=0>
>    (DLT) or other form of decentralized network." Same as previous bullet.
>    - Chapter 2, Terminology, DID method): " A definition of how a
>    specific DID scheme
>    <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F%23dfn-did-schemes&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812197522&sdata=ROIlvKr2XZcL%2FPDYApVrtgdIw1TDYT3qXwzFfNbmX%2Bg%3D&reserved=0>
>    can be implemented on a specific distributed ledger
>    <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fdid-core%2F%23dfn-distributed-ledger-technology&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cf6bf066ff9274ef1785708d7cc0a4607%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637202216812207478&sdata=4OUxDEkrH3256oAW9hRwXvgjXAmPO%2FCms7u4O7Q1%2Bks%3D&reserved=0>
>    or network". Same as previous bullet.
>
> So you are right, while the use of DLT-stuff is (strongly) suggested by
> the standard, it is not required.
>
>
>
> With respect to
>
>    - > the DID-stuff aims to enable interaction (communication) with the
>    entity identified by the DID
>    - That’s also not something that I see mentioned anywhere in the DID
>    spec.  Can you please quote a source?
>
> That's the 4th sentence of the Abstract.
>
>
>
> Rieks
>
>
>
> *From:* Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> *Sent:* woensdag 18 maart 2020 13:31
> *To:* Joosten, H.J.M. (Rieks) <rieks.joosten@tno.nl>;
> daniel.hardman@evernym.com
> *Cc:* Orie Steele <orie@transmute.industries> <orie@transmute.industries>;
> W3C Credentials CG (Public List) <public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Propose vc-examples-registry work item.
>
>
>
> > And rightfully so since the core DID spec  explicitly states that
> DID-stuff belongs on DLTs
>
> >
>
> I think you need to re-read the spec again, as that is clearly *NOT* the
> case.
>
>
>
> Right in Section 1 (Introduction), the first note is very clear on the
> topic:
>
>
>
> NOTE: DID methods can also be developed for identifiers registered in
> federated or centralized identity management systems. Indeed, all types of
> identifier systems can add support for DIDs. This creates an
> interoperability bridge between the worlds of centralized, federated, and
> decentralized identifiers.
>
>
>
> > the DID-stuff aims to enable interaction (communication) with the
> entity identified by the DID
>
> >
>
> That’s also not something that I see mentioned anywhere in the DID spec.
> Can you please quote a source?
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *"Joosten, H.J.M. (Rieks)" <rieks.joosten@tno.nl>
> *Date: *Wednesday, March 18, 2020 at 4:27 AM
> *To: *"daniel.hardman@evernym.com" <daniel.hardman@evernym.com>, Leonard
> Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> *Cc: *Orie Steele <orie@transmute.industries>, "W3C Credentials CG
> (Public List)" <public-credentials@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Propose vc-examples-registry work item.
>
>
>
> And rightfully so since the core DID spec  explicitly states that
> DID-stuff belongs on DLTs. Also, according to the same spec (see the
> abstract), the DID-stuff aims to enable interaction (communication) with
> the entity identified by the DID, which is quite different from schemas.
>
>
> So why specify that you need a DID to refer to a schema if we can
> generalize this to a URI? Doing so does not exclude DIDs since they are a
> specialization of URIs so you can still use the examples.
>
> Rieks
> ------------------------------
>
> *Van:* Daniel Hardman <daniel.hardman@evernym.com>
> *verzonden:* woensdag 18 maart 2020 01:32
> *Aan:* Leonard Rosenthol
> *Cc:* Orie Steele; W3C Credentials CG (Public List)
> *Onderwerp:* Re: Propose vc-examples-registry work item.
>
>
>
> There is a clear bias there towards DIDs (and VC’s in general) that are
> based on ledgers of some fashion.
>
>
>
> Touché. :-)
>
>
>
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> --
>
> *ORIE STEELE*
>
> Chief Technical Officer
>
> www.transmute.industries
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