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[MINUTES] W3C Credentials CG Call - 2020-06-16 12pm ET

From: W3C CCG Chairs <w3c.ccg@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2020 19:16:49 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <5eec2011.1c69fb81.a2332.8777@mx.google.com>
Thanks to Manu Sporny and Amy Guy for scribing this week! The minutes
for this week's Credentials CG telecon are now available:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio from the meeting is available as well (link provided below).

Credentials CG Telecon Minutes for 2020-06-16

  1. Introductions and Reintroductions
  2. Announcements and Reminders
  3. Election Updates
  4. New Work Items
  5. Brief Work Item Review
  6. DID Method Registry
  Kim Hamilton Duffy and Joe Andrieu and Christopher Allen
  Manu Sporny and Amy Guy
  Ryan Grant, Erica Connell, Manu Sporny, Heather Vescent, Amy Guy, 
  Chris Winczewski, Wayne Vaughn, Joe Andrieu, Jonathan Holt, Wayne 
  Chang, Kim Hamilton Duffy, Dmitri Zagidulin, Dan Burnett, Taylor 
  Kendall, Christopher Allen

Wayne Chang:  There is a DIF interop meeting happening now 
  [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Wayne Chang:  I am one of the new Chairs in the group, going to 
  do Agenda Review [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Wayne Chang:  Big items - election updates, work item maturity 
  process, working on items -- what's the process? [scribe assist 
  by Manu Sporny]
Wayne Chang:  How should work items be updated, document update, 
  feedback, then high level feedback on active work items. [scribe 
  assist by Manu Sporny]
Wayne Chang:  With new chairs, best to revisit with the new 
  Chairs. The goal here is if you're reading meeting notes, or if 
  you're here, you should have ability to get involved w/ work 
  items. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Manu Sporny is scribing.
Wayne Chang:  Also, insight into existing work items.
Wayne Chang:  Anyone can participate in these calls, all 
  substantive contributions must come from people that have signed 
  the Intellectual Property Rights agreement. You don't need to 
  join mailing list, but you do need to sign IPR to make sure your 
  contributions are open.
Wayne Chang:  Minutes and audio records are archived on Github - 
  we use IRC to queue speakers during call and take minutes. Type 
  present+ to get yourself on attendees list.
Wayne Chang:  To add yourself to the queue do: q+
Manu Sporny is scribing.
Wayne Chang:  We need a scribe, manu is volunteering.

Topic: Introductions and Reintroductions

Wayne Chang:  Anyone new that has joined these calls? Don't be 
  shy. :)
Dan Burnett: S/chang/wayne/
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Taylor Kendall, can you do it?
Taylor Kendall:  Taylor Kendall, Learning economy foundation, 
  decade in higher ed, future proofing, systems level work in 
  hgiher ed, library of congress, us department of ed, looking at 
  blockchain, learning economy infrastructure level R&D for future 
  of education work. Varied background, but lot of what we do maps 
  to what W3C is doing.
Wayne Chang:  Thanks so much, Taylor, anyone else want to 
  introduce themselves?

Topic: Announcements and Reminders

Wayne Chang:  Today, DIF F2F is happening... announcements link, 
  DIF is an orgnaization in the ecosystem, they decided to have a 
  meeting there.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: The DIF event is happening for a few hours 
  after this meeting, so please join if you want to learn more 
  about what they're up to. it's free
Wayne Chang:  Identiverse started today, spanning everything 
  across 3 weeks - greatful for that - one small item that we have 
  time for, hopefully, Manu had mentioned that DID Registry closing 
  of repo, if we have time, would like to spend time on that to 
  hear abou tthe issues, DID Registry move somewhere else, leave 
  some questions there.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Link to DIF eventbrite: 
Wayne Chang:  Onwards to Election updates.

Topic: Election Updates

Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Heather Vescent won Seat B - joining me 
  along for 1 year term, and wayne for 3 year term.
Heather Vescent: Thank you!
Wayne Vaughn: Congrats heather!
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Wanted to thank, sincerely our outgoing 
  chairs for their leadership.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: 
Wayne Vaughn: Also, manu you have no idea how hard i fought for 
  the wayne handle on freenode
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  This was our first election, we learned a 
  lot - we created an issue to track the process... there was email 
  thread about individuals vs. companies, vote by particular date 
  was ambiguous/buried... the method of voting, the last one... few 
  people who voted were not members according to proper voting 
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  There might be several causes of confusion, 
  sometimes people leave company and update affiliation, some 
  people join mailing list and not the group.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Some are DID WG members, not CCG members, 
  created issue ... BUT election results are valid, this didn't 
  affect election in any way, new Chairs will need to address these 
  things. People that are not members but not contributing, will 
  need them to sign IPR agreements.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  How can we make this better for our future 
  selves? Companies or individuals can vote w/o having a gun to our 
  head, making this up at the last minute, we need to make some 
  clarifications to our process going forward.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Also wanted to thank oru vote counters... 
  Ivan was or "International Elections Observer" to oversee our 
  flawed voting process.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We got to a valid election result despite 
  those issues.
Joe Andrieu:  I just wanted to congratulate Heather and wish her 
  the best of luck.
Heather Vescent:  Thanks Joe! :)
Ryan Grant:  Do we have a vote count?
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We had 39-ish total votes, had to discard 9 
  because people joined after cut off, others thought they were 
  members but were not.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Either way, we ran it, it didn't affect the 
Wayne Vaughn:  Just wanted to thank both Joe and Chris over their 
  time in the group, hope they stick around and help us with their 
Wayne Vaughn:  New work items - how do they attain maturity?
Heather Vescent:  Just wanted to say thank you to the CCG and 
  everyone that voted, exceited to bring my talents and skills to 
  this communjity. Thank you to Joe and Chris, they've definitely 
  put in a lot of work to bring CCG to where it is. Looking forward 
  to building on that base with Kim and Wayne to take it to a new 
Kim Hamilton Duffy: New Work Item Process: 
Heather Vescent:  If anyone would like to reach out and chat with 
  me, concerns, diversity items, my "office" is always open - feel 
  free to contact me via email, DM, however you see fit.
Wayne Vaughn:  Great, thank you Heather and congratulations 

Topic: New Work Items

Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We reviwed this a while back, now that we 
  have a new set of chairs, lots of work items going on in group, 
  good time to revisit it, scan through document, when we've done 
  our job well, we're not quite there yet, but when we get there, 
  you don't need to know existence of this document.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We want to udnerstand and provide 
  tools/support that we can to shepherd items through the 
  process... we don't want people to read 13 page document to 
  figure out how to move a work item through. Second point, playing 
  on what Heather just said, how to make this more inclusive... 
  make work items such that people don't have to be familiar with 
  technical tools to get work item through.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  This document calls out opportunities to 
  clarify, you can still think this is a work in progress, Chairs 
  can look at new opportunities. Going to make this quick, orient 
  you to this document, types of work items, flow... look at TLDR 
  -40K foot view. All work items follow this flow chart.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Proposal, adoption, two paths whther it is 
  ongoing community draft, of community report draft...
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Community report draft, DID spec, VC spec, 
  stuff like that
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Ongoing community draft are stuff like 
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Ongoing community draft on page 3
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  If you go to 20K foot view, on page 4, more 
  details called out... once we get into actual work progress, 
  community report draft, big blue-green-ish box, you see that work 
  items go from rough draft phase to Github, unreleased draft, 
  current work items in this state right now.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  The Editors decide when the item is ready, 
  tag repo with git release number, that ends up being a released 
  draft, editors have to ensure IPR protection, request chairs to 
  publish, to get to published draft.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Once W3C staff approves, Chair vetting, you 
  get final report... there are early escapes due to inactivity - 
  combination people being unclear about the process and also 
  opportunity now to start encouraging shepherding things along. 
  Two notes about this, very github heavy, in rough draft phase, 
  for certain work items, it may be possible to do early iterations 
  out of Github, still means that people / Editors still need to be 
  aware of who is
Contributing, we need IP release, but for some work items, if 
  they are not a draft spec, might be reasonable to do a lot of 
  iterations outside of github, once inside Github, it's done.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Possible chairs might supply support / 
  automation to make things easier. Open question.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Lastly on Github-ness - Christopher found 
  some integration that might help w/ Github version management, 
  primary thing people interact with is not Github... but hack.md
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Not clear that - that may be ismple commits, 
  not releases, still want to provide solution for that... that's 
  the major process, still some challenges that need to be worked 
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  On page 5, representative example.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  How do you propose a work item?
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  What we did was take the details outlined in 
  this document and turned it into a Github template.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  This page, bottom of page 8, demonstrates 
  how to use new work item template.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  You go to community repo in CCG, click on 
  new issue, CCG new work item template, get started, and it 
  prompts you to fill out what you need to get work item started.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  You need to link to draft proposal, identify 
  some editors, then all the rest is handled in Github template, 
  labeled correctly, chairs can handle, rest is filling in details, 
  won't go into too much there.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  It's a work in progress
Wayne Vaughn:  The W3C CCG is one of the most powerful platforms 
  that we have to move these things forward.
Christopher Allen:  As Wayne just said, we are not a standards 
  orgnaization, we don't have the right to be able to create an 
  international standard, however, we can incubate specifications, 
  notes, so that they have the opportunity to become international 
  standards. That's our unique role.
Christopher Allen:  To that end, we have to be careful about IPR, 
  other things, but don't have to have rigour that DID spec is 
  going through right now... DID Spec is on its way to be 
  international standard in international process and WG.
Christopher Allen:  Our job is to get things prepped so things 
  can take off and change the world.
Christopher Allen:  All of these things don't start with full 
  consensus and full uninimity...
Christopher Allen:  You can have work items in this group start 
  fairly small, you can start work items that conflict with other 
  work items, the only time we require uniminity, when we get to 
  end of process, we don't need principled objections.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: S/uninimity/unanimity
Christopher Allen:  Once we get stuff done here, they move onto 
  standards track at W3C, IETF... Chairs are here to help everyone 
  along ... don't want things to get stalled in unreleased drafts.
Christopher Allen:  We might be able to use Hackmd - like Google 
  Docs but uses Markdown - halfway betwene developer oriented 
  Github and corporate-centric like Google Docs.
Christopher Allen:  Looking forward to working on these things w/ 
  the group.

Topic: Brief Work Item Review

Wayne Vaughn: 
Wayne Vaughn:  Ongoing community drafts... task forces meet every 
Wayne two here - DID Resolution and we also have VCED group.
Wayne Vaughn:  Kim might be better to cover VCED
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  The Verifiable Credentials for Education 
  (VCED) group is defining VCs in context of Education - first work 
  item, still in progress...
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  There is a lot of work in our community, 
  effort in how you express skills, onen good thing is there is 
  interest in Linked Data to specify precise skills and 
  competencies, more interesting long running effort.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  People don't necessarily just want to issue 
  diplomas and transcripts, but things you learn throughout course 
  or lifelong learning... as an example, tradition credential would 
  be "I attended a course" credential, but doesn't say if you're 
  competent  in skills.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Competency-based approach would be issuing 
  competency credential along the way.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We got in touch with a lot of people writing 
  these Education standards, sheer amount of work done in it, know 
  there is a lot of work going on to express those as Linked Data, 
  rewriting cirriculum, change how you write a course description 
  and what's learned throughout around that.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: 
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Wanted to start out with use cases to issue 
  VCs so that people can start issuing with some good 
  references/models... one thing we noticed at interopathon, 
  university degree credentials, what advice can we give people 
  wanting to represent that, more meaningful data, vocabs back to 
  it, schemas, vocabs, taxonomies can it be linked to?
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We want to see possible approaches for 
  people to use there... called out some examples, course program 
  certificate, diploma, European open skills assertion, competency 
  based assertions. Transcripts and EDCI - point to legal signature 
  requirements, both in state where dominant schemas/formats use 
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Love educational credentials, however time 
  check on this work item [scribe assist by Wayne Vaughn]
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We've talked about this , what can we do for 
  nearer term, for EDCI, reason to use XML is legally binding 
  signature requirements, get in new signature method ... trying to 
  provide a place where reference examples can be provided. We're 
  not a standards body, we're working w/ other educational 
  standards bodies to take recommendations and apply those in 
  educational data standards.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We're focusing on things exploring in 
  educational space. Work with existing educational methods. We 
  focus on education and lifelong education, not just higher 
  university use cases. Really a function of who shows up, 
  modelling education credentials document was reflection of types 
  of prototypes people are trying to build. Please join if you're 
Wayne Vaughn:  What is a task force and how do you start one?
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Task Force work on  community drafts, you 
  start it up, like DID Resolution Task Force, people are deciding 
  they wanted to work on a problem, ongoing problem, yo udon't want 
  to use all CCG time to work on it.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  You basically start it up - announce the 
  meeting time, follow same rules of making sure IPR release, all 
  that, but then you just set a meeting time that's convenient for 
  attendees. For that, ask Chairs if you have questions for what's 
  involved, recordings, taking minutes.
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Don't want to overly emphasize that, we're 
  in process of revisiting how we do all of this. There is some 
  mailing list discussion about using Zoom, Wayne and Manu looking 
  into more open options, hopefully it'll get easier soon.
Wayne Vaughn:  If you want to get on the VCEDU calls, there is a 
  link on Github...
Kim Hamilton Duffy: https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-ed
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Yes, each group tends to have a repo for 
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  If you want a group, just submit an 
Christopher Allen:  Some clarity - when is something ready for a 
  Task Force -- don't suggest Chairs just immediately start a Task 
  Force, someone proposes a work item, schedules meeting/time on 
  their own, so many people involved, or regular discussions at 
  higher level, do more than just one document, that's a good 
  signal that this should escalate to a Task Force, more formally 
  recognize their meetings.
Christopher Allen:  There is a third task force, joint one with 
  DIF - on Secure Storage.
Joe Andrieu: That's not a CCG task force, actually
Wayne Vaughn: 
Christopher Allen:  That's another example that can happen, 
  interest, not solely in W3C communtiy, with other communities, we 
  could do something like that for IETF oriented, OASIS oriented, 
  work items don't start as Task Forces, they grow to become Task 
  Forces. The first big success was Verifiable Claims Task Force 
  (old name), the CCG was mostly inactive when VCTF was active.
Christopher Allen:  In the end, they were able to do what was 
  necesasry to do move that item out... first big success was 
  Verifiable Credentials as International Standard.
Wayne Vaughn:  Move through rest of work items to talk abot DID 
  Resolution... get clarity over that issue. walking through items
Wayne Vaughn:  We have status method registry, linked data crpto 
  registry, key format registry, ongoing community drafts... what 
  are registries, lists of things that we maintain... tasteful 
  selection of what goes into those lists.
Wayne Vaughn:  Next up community reports, major outputs, people 
  that might consume from W3C, IETF -- hope that these will make it 
  into right places... not official standards org, but can incubate 
  them here... make sure they're successful. You can go through 
  work items.
Wayne Vaughn:  VP Request - CHAPI - Credential Handler API - that 
  came out of Silicon Valley Innovation Program...
Wayne Vaughn:  BBS+ 2020 work data formats for describing ZKPs w/ 
Wayne Vaughn:  If we have a drivers license, you could 
  selectively disclose fields w/o correlation in some cases.
Wayne Vaughn:  Some older items, what this grop has produced. 
  Linked Data Signatures for JWS - VC Examples - DID Use Cases, 
  which I find interesting... must relate to real world somehow.
Wayne Vaughn:  Commentary of process, kim gave an example, 
  engagement models - work items.
Wayne Vaughn: 
Wayne Vaughn:  There is the link in case you want to click 
  through yourself... good to see things that have been ongoing.
Amy Guy is scribing.

Topic: DID Method Registry

Manu Sporny:  The CCG is maintaining this document called the DID 
  Method Registry
Manu Sporny: 
  ... this is a collection of all the DID methods that the others 
  have registered
  ... this is the list current and known DID methods that people 
  are or have worked on
  ... as a part of the DID WG work, there were another set of 
  registries that we needed, the properties for a DID document, and 
  parameters that you can attach to a DID
  ... things of that nature
  ... one of the things that became apparent was people wanted 
  one place to find all the things about the DID ecosystem
  ... there was a suggestion the DID methods belonged in there
  ... the DID Spec REgistries in the DID WG is getting published, 
  the First Public WD is going out, and the group felt it would be 
  a good idea to combine everything in the first release so there's 
  a full picture
  ... it created this issue where we don't know who is managing 
  the list of DID methods
  ... the proposal is for the DID WG, a W3C WG, to take over 
  management of that list while that group is active, and for us to 
  archive the CCG version of that spec
  ... so that people don't open PRs in both places
  ... effectively this is just moving the work to the WG so the 
  WG can build all the registries it needs to
  ... in the future, at the end of 2021 Sept, if the DID WG shuts 
  down and if there isn't a maintenance group then the CCG would 
  take back over
  ... but there was a request to officially move that over to the 
Wayne Vaughn:  There seems to be some uncertainty, what was the 
  decision making process?
Manu Sporny:  We haven't made that decision yet, people kept 
  saying they think it's a good idea and they should do it. The DID 
  WG agreed theyw anted to take the work on
  ... the second step was moving the content to a document in the 
  DID WG and having an official publication
  ... the next step is for this group to say everything looks 
  good, we'll transition it over
  ... we need to assert we're doing it, and call for any 
  ... it shouldn't be a very controversial thing, but when we're 
  transferring work between groups we should make sure we're doing 
  it per the process
Joe Andrieu:  There are issues in the DID WG that were assigned 
  to Chris or me that need to be assigned to new chairs
Ryan Grant:  My question is doesn't moving something twice create 
  indecision for future editors who are trying to find it?
Manu Sporny:  Short answer no, we can set up a redirect
Jonathan Holt:  Reservations about moving it to the DID WG, this 
  is a decentralised method and it's not specific to W3C so I'd 
  worry about what would happen to the DID methods, filtering or 
  determining that theyr'e not conforming to the spec unilaterally 
  in the WG
  ... i see it as a decentralised solution and have reservations 
  about it being DID WG specific
Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Could you please takeover the closeout? my 
  client just busted [scribe assist by Wayne Vaughn]
Wayne Vaughn: We're at the top of the hour now
Wayne Vaughn: Cc manu in case kimhd isn't checking irc
Manu Sporny: Great job Chairing today, Wayne! :)
Wayne Vaughn: Ty!
Received on Friday, 19 June 2020 02:17:06 UTC

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