- From: Moses Ma <moses.ma@futurelabconsulting.com>
- Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 09:41:08 -0800
- To: public-credentials@w3.org
- Cc: Samantha Mathews <samantha@venn.agency>, Po Chi Wu <wu.pochi@futurelabconsulting.com>
- Message-ID: <cb5dbcc1-c9d1-941e-1ab0-234427661bbe@futurelabconsulting.com>
Hey people,
If you are passionate about finding or validating a revenue model for
DID technology, and would like to sign up to participate in the call
with Po Chi Wu <https://tedxhongkong.org/speaker/dr-po-chi-wu/> to
survey and analyze monetization models for DID developers, please let us
know here:
*https://goo.gl/forms/2tKbmbi5cDQMUBaC2 *
The one hour call will be moderated by Samantha Chase, who will likely
send out a noodle to set a date/time for the call. I'll send the
subscriber list to both Sam and Po Chi.
My proposal for an approach is to simply start with a survey of ways
people are working on or thinking about – building and selling tools,
consulting to enterprise/startups/government, doing an ICO/STO to fund a
larger vision, coming up with a new business model to enable a
sustainable commons - and then assess how much effort it will take, how
much it could make, and how long it's going to take to get there. Then
we can select 2-3 of the models to drill down into. The focus is to kick
off new thinking and innovation in this area.
Cheers,
Moses
PS, these are great to read:
* *https://github.com/w3c-ccg/did-primer
*
* https://github.com/WebOfTrustInfo/rwot7/blob/master/topics-and-advance-readings/CanCurationMarketsEstablishSustainableTechnologyCommons.pdf
* https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AbhR3xFLXYB7h83iGqmhgF9N6Q5BM2thziwbrS2miqs/edit
*
*
**
On 11/26/18 9:57 PM, Carlos Bruguera wrote:
> Thanks for the update.
>
> On this regard, can anybody share the link paper mentioned during the
> call: /Furthering sustainable commons/? Appreciated.
>
> On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 10:58 AM <kim@learningmachine.com
> <mailto:kim@learningmachine.com>> wrote:
>
> Thanks to for scribing this week! The minutes
> for this week's Credentials CG telecon are now available:
>
> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2018-11-20/
>
> Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
> Audio from the meeting is available as well (link provided below).
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> Credentials CG Telecon Minutes for 2018-11-20
>
> Agenda:
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2018Nov/0129.html
> Topics:
> 1. Introductions and Reintroductions
> 2. Announcements, reminders
> 3. Action items
> 4. Work Items
> 5. Pain points
> Organizer:
> Joe Andrieu and Kim Hamilton Duffy and Christopher Allen
> Scribe:
>
> Present:
> Christopher Allen, Bohdan Andriyiv, Andrew Hughes, Manu Sporny,
> Dmitri Zagidulin, Ryan Grant, Brent Zundel, Moses Ma, Joe
> Andrieu, Lucas Parker, Ted Thibodeau, Lionel Wolberger, Markus
> Sabadello, Drummond Reed, Joe Kaplan, Sam Smith, Nate Otto,
> Michaela Casaldi, Jarlath O'Carroll, Jeff Orgel, Chris Webber,
> Andrew Rosen, Adrian Hope-Bailie
> Audio:
> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2018-11-20/audio.ogg
>
> Joe Andrieu: Connections
> Ryan Grant: Does voip-ccg association still work if you do it?
>
> Topic: Introductions and Reintroductions
>
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Main topic, the pain points that DIs are
> solving.
> Drummond Reed: Note: I can only stay for the first 30 mins today.
> Moses Ma: Spoke with his partners about our work, and we have a
> volunteer. Dr. Wu [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... VC who ran a $billion fund
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Templates for DID monetization
> Lionel Wolberger: .... List different ways we can monetize the
> DID market
> Manu Sporny: +1 To that effort, would be very helpful to the CCG.
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Dr. Wu was a lead investor on Tivo, is good
> at revenue models.
> Joe Kaplan: Will this be a work item? How can the community
> support? [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Moses Ma: Paper for next RWoT [scribe assist by Lionel
> Wolberger]
> Sam Smith: Furthering sustainable commons, [scribe assist by
> Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... If looking to monetize, this paper is
> related. Will share it.
> Moses Ma: Let's have the community participate. Should stipulate
> how a standard can create a fair method to enable monetization
> models. [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> S/Furhtering/Furthering
> Lionel Wolberger: .... A mockup of the UX would be helpful,
> perhaps in Adobe XD
> Joe Kaplan: Send email and we will follow up. [scribe assist by
> Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: Jarlath to the mic!
> Jarlath O'Carroll: CEO and founder of Jobs___ [scribe assist by
> Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Connects students to jobs
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Interested in CCG/VCs for credentials
> regarding skills, etc
>
> Topic: Announcements, reminders
>
> Joe Kaplan: Dec 10 workshop, Microsoft [scribe assist by Lionel
> Wolberger]
> Manu Sporny: 55 People are signed up, room for 15 more. [scribe
> assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Manu Sporny:
> https://www.w3.org/Security/strong-authentication-and-identity-workshop/cfp.html
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Seeking more lawyers, regulatory and
> compliance types
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Seeking more European (GDPR) and China
> focus
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Still time to register!
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Note that new proposals will compete with
> some critical proposals that we must present at the workshop
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Agenda is being formulated and will be
> shared soon.
> Lionel Wolberger: RWoT #8 planned for Feb22/28/Mar 01
> Joe Kaplan: Making decisions about location, to be announced
> ASAP. [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Joe Kaplan: IIW APril3-May 2. Not the same time as RWoT this
> time ;-) [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Manu Sporny: Barcelona proposal for RWoT [scribe assist by
> Lionel Wolberger]
> Moses Ma: +1 Barcelona
> Lionel Wolberger: ... May be just after MWC (mobile world
> congress)
> Christopher Allen: Take train
>
> Topic: Action items
>
> Bohdan Andriyiv: +1 For Barcelona)
> Joe Kaplan: Planning to "create Amira as a repo" [scribe assist
> by Lionel Wolberger]
> Moses Ma: Can someone post URL to Sam's "Furthering sustainable
> commons" paper
> Joe Andrieu: https://github.com/w3c-ccg/community/issues/18
> Manu Sporny: https://www.w3.org/2018/11/19-vcwg-minutes.html
> Manu Sporny: Meeting minutes on how to harmonize with Verifiable
> Credentials [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... General pattern for addressing ZKPs
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Pattern to host ZKP even as binary BLOBs
> Joe Andrieu:
> https://github.com/w3c-ccg/community/blob/master/work_items.md
>
> Topic: Work Items
>
> Drummond Reed: The Sovrin community intends for ZKPs to NOT be a
> "bizarre, out-of-the way format" :-)
> Ryan Grant: +1 For Barcelona
> Manu Sporny: Drummond -- I expected as much, :)
> Manu Sporny: OCAP in JS [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Library implementation
> BLOB = Bizarre Large Object </humor>
> Manu Sporny: Regarding, seeking additional funds for people to
> implement tools [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... E.g. issue a new type of verfiable
> credential, need to define a vocabulary, need a website where you
> can go and CLICK to publish such a vocabulary
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Cryptographic hash linking specification,
> that is more detailed then just "use IPRS"
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Will be useful to have a kind of "magnet
> link"
> Lionel Wolberger: ... This is a problem across the decentralized
> blockchain space
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Proposing an IETF specification
> Nate Otto: +1 To magnet link IRIs for linked data
> Lionel Wolberger: ... New problem emerging around vendor lockin
> on digital wallets
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Ensure that one vendor won't lock out
> everyone else, by being specification conforming but not enabing
> data portability
> Lionel Wolberger: Manu: Exciting stuff +1
> Drummond Reed: BTW, avoiding vendor lock-in is a primary goal of
> DKMS, of which the plan is to start a Technical Committee at
> OASIS. See http://bit.ly/dkmsv3
> Manu Sporny: Mag links will be important to endurance, the
> ability for documents to be addressable over a period of years
> [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
>
> Topic: Pain points
>
> Manu Sporny: Drummond, What I was talking about goes beyond DKMS,
> but yes, that work is important as well.
> Chris Webber: We accept the value of decentralization without
> much consideration [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... We can now tease out the assumptions and
> motivations behind this
> Lionel Wolberger: ... These should be made overt in the DID
> primer
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Let's start with Vendor Lock-in
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Many standards and protocols ended up being
> locked-in due to some inherent centrality
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Example: Twitter had lots of apps in a
> broad ecosystem, but by Twitter controlling the API Keys they
> constrained that ecosystem
> Lionel Wolberger: ... In federated DIDs, some parties took
> protocols that were intended to be two way
> Lionel Wolberger: ... But then only implemented one side
> Lionel Wolberger: \
> Manu Sporny: Every market vertical has its own motivation for
> needing DIDs [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... In Healthcare DIDS are useful for X,Y,Z
> Lionel Wolberger: ... In banking DIDs are useful for doing n,m,o
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Local, provincial and federal governments
> do not want to be the system of record for identifiers
> Lionel Wolberger: ... It's all knowledge based stuff
> Lionel Wolberger: ... These organizations do not want to control
> knowledge based identifiers as opposed to cryptographic
> identifiers
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Since they are almost guaranteed that the
> funding creating the system diminishes over time
> Lionel Wolberger: ... As the systems grow, the funding shrinks
> and can even be cut
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Making the central system suceptible to
> failure
> Andrew Hughes: Identifiers are useful. The fatal flaw (in our
> opinion) is that useful widely-usable identifiers end up with
> central authorities or defacto authorities that have ‘kill
> switches’. Also all ‘authorities’ must inevitably become
> high-value attach target infrastructure while at the same time
> facing funding pressures (because it goes into the background as
> infrastructure). Decentralization has the promise of a
> globally-shared namespace that involved de[CUT]
> Andrew Hughes: Governance and operations but universal
> resolvability.
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Organizations are excited that the DID
> enables use without hosting it
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Though when you point out the cost, their
> enthusiasm cools a bit
> Q
> Chris Webber: Borders are a pain point [scribe assist by Lionel
> Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Borders between countries. Borders between
> companies.
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Different ways we evaluate and think about
> trust
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Everybody's trust requirements are
> different, in sometimes subtle, sometimes kajor ways
> Lionel Wolberger: ... A centralized federated system demands tha
> tthe trust model propagate throughout the system and mark all
> interactions
> Lionel Wolberger: ... A decentralized system will support
> variation in those trust rules
> Lionel Wolberger: ... You may want to rely on something that
> other people dont need or dont want to pay for
> Drummond Reed: Gotta run now. Bye.
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Back in SSL, we defined client certs, and
> almost no one ended up adopting that
> Joe Kaplan: In solving the double spend problem, we ended up
> defining DIDs [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Interstitial jurisdictionality
> Lionel Wolberger: ... There are well defined jurisdictions
> Lionel Wolberger: Inbetween these well defined jurisdictions
> there are interactions
> Lionel Wolberger: ... In these interstices we interact
> Lionel Wolberger: ... How can we have an interaction outside a
> jurisdiction
> Lionel Wolberger: ... E.g. a soviet union master of science, how
> will another country e.g. the UK evaluate that
> Andrew Rosen: Identifiers are useful. [scribe assist by Lionel
> Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... These have kill switches
> Lionel Wolberger: ... DID offers governance but still
> resolvability
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Identifiers are useful. The fatal flaw (in
> our opinion) is that useful widely-usable identifiers end up with
> central authorities or defacto authorities that have ‘kill
> switches’. Also all ‘authorities’ must inevitably become
> high-value attach target infrastructure while at the same time
> facing funding pressures (because it goes into the background as
> infrastructure). Decentralization has the promise of a
> globally-shared namesp[CUT]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Governance and operations but universal
> resolvability.
> Sam Smith: Offloading personal data liability, avoiding toxic
> data [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Focusing on construction sites, new
> construction to create a safety wifi network to mark things on a
> job site, track
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Generates a safety plan and a 3D model of
> the space from floor plans
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Sam showed them overlays in the wallet
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Proof of data without cost of storage
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Given these watches (apple watch) will you
> accept this token?
> Lionel Wolberger: ... If this succeeds, no one has to store the
> data, then through an overlay or an OAuth scope
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Hit the threshold
> Lionel Wolberger: ... This way create a non-surveillance
> ecosystem
> Lionel Wolberger: Audio problem
> Lionel Wolberger: Go on
> Manu Sporny: Centralized ID providers, e.g. legal entity
> identifier and large corporations [scribe assist by Lionel
> Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... These are interested in upgrading their
> identifiers
> Lionel Wolberger: ... E.g. a company whose business model is
> issuing identifiers
> Lionel Wolberger: ... They seek the addition of a layer of
> cryptography to mitigate and prevent theft
> Lionel Wolberger: ... They could roll their own crypto, or more
> simply adopt DIDs
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Centralized authorities want to upgrade
> their ecosystem and add cryptography
> Lionel Wolberger: *** Can someone scribe temporarily, I will drop
> and rejoin ****
> Bohdan Andriyiv: One of the issues is longevity in identifiers.
> [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Bohdan Andriyiv: If I have an identifier, and I want a signature
> on something, providers can disappear, there is no certainty that
> these centralized identifiers will stay. So I think this is one
> of the reasons that digital signatures were not widely adopted.
> [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Bohdan Andriyiv: DIDs solve this problem. [scribe assist by Manu
> Sporny]
> Lionel Wolberger: Manu, i'm back
> Bohdan Andriyiv: Question to manu - governments do not want to
> manage records of centralized identifiers - I do think
> governments still want those lists - they still have databases,
> data stores, records of who paid how much in taxes, who received
> how much and benefits, they need to keep this data, they don't
> want to manage passwords for people. [scribe assist by Manu
> Sporny]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Still a need to retain the data, just not
> manage the task force and make it more secure
> Markus Sabadello: Regarding large companies interested in
> upgrading their IDs to DIDs [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... I have an IETF draft to discover DIDs based
> on the domain name system
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Large companies are interested in using
> domain names for discovery
> Markus Sabadello:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mayrhofer-did-dns/
> Manu Sporny: +1, That's really neat work that's going on.
> Joe Kaplan: In the digital realm things are easily faked [scribe
> assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Public key/private key issues
> Lionel Wolberger: ... How do you verify that something is not
> fake
> Lionel Wolberger: ... That is a pain point that DIDs solve
> Jarlath O'Carroll: @Lionel - there was a discussion about VC and
> Jobs earlier, can you please post the link to the details of this
> work in the feed again (I missed it)?
> Chris Webber: Keep in mind we had PGP keys for decades and they
> were decentralized [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... They did not spread everywhere because
> Lionel Wolberger: ... (A) they were not vendor agnostic nor
> future proof
> Lionel Wolberger: .. .DIDs are rotateble so allow technological
> upgrades
> Lionel Wolberger: ... The crypto is separated from the actual
> identifer
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Another reason why PGP fingerprints did not
> achieve wide market adoption
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Due to the complications of rotating them
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Revocation was extremely difficult, you
> needed the original key material
> Lionel Wolberger: ... You had to notify people
> Lionel Wolberger: ... A number of DID methods have fast and
> efficient ways to notify about revocation and rotation
> Adrian Hope-Bailie: Questions back to Markus, etc [scribe assist
> by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... I use corporate centralized user IDs in
> general today
> Lionel Wolberger: ... If DIDs would be linked to domain names or
> email addresses
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Would the service provider only persist the
> DID and not the email address?
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Let's say I use finger
> Markus Sabadello: Yes, your understanding is correct. [scribe
> assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Adrian Hope-Bailie: That sounds like a powerful value statement.
> [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... That ability sounds quite valuable
> Lionel Wolberger: Something that wasn't mentioned - DID process
> of creating an identifier feels like it's lower friction, more
> lightweight. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Lionel Wolberger: So many more digital interactions, so many
> more devices, feels like a better way to interact given the
> complexity of devices today. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
> Manu Sporny: Responding to Bohdan [scribe assist by Lionel
> Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... The general assertion is that governments
> must continue to manage data
> Lionel Wolberger: ... But the identifier is really secondary to
> their interest
> Markus Sabadello: FYI the August CCG list archive has some
> discussion on pros/cons of discovering DIDs from DNS:
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2018Aug/thread.html
> Lionel Wolberger: ... E.g. in the USA the SocSec number is being
> used as an identifier but SecSec admin wants to stop this
> Lionel Wolberger: ... SSA does not really need the identifier,
> they just need to provide their services
> Lionel Wolberger: ... This is what we mean by saying geovernments
> do not want to be identifier providers
> Lionel Wolberger: ... It is not their core value proposition
> Lionel Wolberger: ... They still need an identity proofing
> process, of course
> Lionel Wolberger: ... But then they would not have the
> responsibility to maintain and track the identifier
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Keep in mind, they still have to store the
> ID and that is an attack surface honeypot
> Lionel Wolberger: ... They will benefit from the VC architecture,
> where they store that they had a verified credential and can tear
> down and not store a lot of the artifacts of the proving process
> itself
> Chris Webber: We are trying to move away from knowledge based
> security (e.g. you know my SocSec#, you know my birthdate)
> [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Manu Sporny: Yep, Knowledge Based Authentication is usually a bad
> thing...
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Human memorizability for DIDs was an
> argument that we had
> Lionel Wolberger: ... I (Chris) advocated for non-memorizable
> IDs, I wanted it to be underlying
> Lionel Wolberger: ... But people may want DIDs to last a lifetime
> Lionel Wolberger: ... That is not prevented by the standard,
> though this would be an inappropriate use
> Lionel Wolberger: ... I dont want to give my BTCR identifer, I
> want to give a more safe identifer.
> Adrian Hope-Bailie: Responding to Manu, that the credentials are
> not retained [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Huge synergy with the upcoming technology
> that more and more data stores will be held by individuals
> Lionel Wolberger: ... This is a good argument for DIDs in the
> broadest sense
> Joe Kaplan: Adding pain points from previous notes. [scribe
> assist by Lionel Wolberger]
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Things change. Email addresses change.
> Phone numbers change. Technologies change. Organizations change.
> Lionel Wolberger: ... The organization that could have verified
> your deed does not exist anymore.
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Fakes are a pain point. Signatures prevent
> this, but signatures need PKI
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Over-identification is a pain point.
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Identifier misuse. Successful and useful
> IDs tend to get used for more things
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Burden of management: DIDs will be easier
> for companies and organizations.
> Lionel Wolberger: ... Jurisdictional boundaries, where different
> groups for different reasons need their own identifiers.
> Andrew Hughes: Pain point - vendor lock-in
> A world of pain (points) </h>
> Chris Webber: One size trust does not fit all [scribe assist by
> Lionel Wolberger]
> Manu Sporny: Good summary, is really going to help write the W3C
> TAG primer
> Lionel Wolberger: ... You get to decide what your trust model is
> Moses Ma: Bye y'all, have a great thanksgiving!
> Lionel Wolberger: HAPPY TURKEY DAY
> Joe Kaplan: See you [scribe assist by Lionel Wolberger]
>
>
>
>
>
--
*Moses Ma | Managing Partner*
moses.ma@futurelabconsulting.com | moses@ngenven.com
v+1.415.568.1068 | skype mosesma | /linktr.ee/moses.tao/
<http://linktr.ee/moses.tao>
FutureLab provides strategy, ideation and technology for breakthrough
innovation and third generation blockchains.
Learn more at /www.futurelabconsulting.com/
<http://futurelabconsulting.com>. For calendar invites, please cc:
mosesma@gmail.com
Or whet your appetite by reading /Agile Innovation/
<http://www.amazon.com/Agile-Innovation-Revolutionary-Accelerate-Engagement/dp/B00SSRSZ9A>
| /Blockchain Design Sprint/
<https://www.amazon.com/Blockchain-Design-Sprint-Workbook-Implement/dp/1548592714>
| my blog at /psychologytoday.com/
<http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-tao-innovation>.
Received on Tuesday, 27 November 2018 17:41:46 UTC