W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-credentials@w3.org > August 2016

Re: Revised Verifiable Claims WG Charter (RC-2) (was Re: Problem statement)

From: Timothy Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2016 15:23:16 +0000
Message-ID: <CAM1Sok1AVDoPNu4tnOP65+W6V1h=euXbkqEnUdAMkpo8h05hqg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Shane McCarron <shane@spec-ops.io>, Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>, Dave Longley <dlongley@digitalbazaar.com>
Cc: David Chadwick <d.w.chadwick@kent.ac.uk>, Credentials Community Group <public-credentials@w3.org>
to put it another way,

manu - can you turn this SVG data (fingerprint example) into a credentials
compliant example?

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  </g>
</svg>


Cheers,

Tim.


On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 at 01:04 Timothy Holborn <timothy.holborn@gmail.com>
wrote:

> A Fundamental promise that has existed for years, is that you can goto a
> website and say, your an adult, and that is all.
>
> if what has developed since cannot do that, then it should be seriously
> considered by stakeholders.
>
> Timothy Holborn.
>
>
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 at 01:02 Shane McCarron <shane@spec-ops.io> wrote:
>
>> I will try.  I wanted to expand on something I said earlier though:  If
>> you are concerned about the keeping sensitive information private,
>> Verifiable Claims is not for you.  Any information, once shared, is
>> revealed.  You can express your intent with regard to the use of the
>> information. You can express your desires on how long the data should be
>> around or with whom it can be shared, but you cannot enforce it.  The value
>> proposition for Verifiable Claims is the "V" part.  That an inspector can
>> be 100% confident in something you claim (assuming the issuer is in the
>> inspector's trust chain somewhere).
>>
>> What we started debating here was about what privacy-enhancing means.
>> What I should have said earlier was that the Working Group will define
>> exactly what that means.  Part of the job of a formal activity like this is
>> to balance the needs of users with technological capabilities. We should
>> not presuppose any solution.  That was my bad.
>>
>> So, getting back to the core discussion...  Our use cases [1] imply a lot
>> of core functionality.  Decomposability is NOT actually implied in there.
>> I just re-read the document.  Composability IS implied.  And all that means
>> is that, given a collection of claims (at whatever level of granularity) I
>> as a holder MUST be able to group together some of these, express my intent
>> about how they should be used, and sign the group.  Let's call this a
>> "credential".
>>
>> Once that credential exists, I can pass that to an inspector.  The
>> inspector then presumably knows whatever they needed to know, and they can
>> verify the individual claims that make up the credential I sent to them.
>>
>> Ideally, when I am issued a digital claim, it is a collection of VERY
>> FINELY GRAINED claims, each of which was signed by the issuer.  Then I have
>> the ability to create my credential in exactly the way I want.
>>
>> I suppose it is possible that there will be issuers who will not do
>> this.  They will issue a big claim to me.  The US State Department could
>> issue a digital passport that contained ALL of the relevant information
>> (including an embedded PNG of my face and a link to some magic blockchain
>> thing onto which all of my passport transactions would be written).  In
>> that case, I would probably only choose to share that with governments.  I
>> wouldn't use it at the liquor store.
>>
>> But I digress.  I will go play in the playground and see if can do what
>> you have asked.  I will try to start from examples in our data model
>> document [2] and go from there.
>>
>> [1] http://w3c.github.io/webpayments-ig/VCTF/use-cases/
>> [2] http://www.opencreds.org/specs/source/claims-data-model/
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 7:30 AM, Timothy Holborn <
>> timothy.holborn@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> So, here's an example[1] generated using JSON-LD playground [2].
>>>
>>> can you give me an example of what you are talking about, so i can see
>>> we are on the same page?
>>>
>>> Tim.H.
>>>
>>> [1] http://tinyurl.com/hdyxcqe
>>> [2] http://json-ld.org/
>>>
>>> On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 at 00:46 Shane McCarron <shane@spec-ops.io> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Notes inline:
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2016 at 7:56 AM, Timothy Holborn <
>>>> timothy.holborn@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps i'm wrong, but if the claims are issued as separate documents
>>>>> with independent signatures for each claim; then the resulting use has
>>>>> quite different qualities to a single document with multiple claims.
>>>>> Therein, the document with the signature needs to be presented and all the
>>>>> claims in that document are combined with the signature.
>>>>>
>>>> Well - I didn't say they were separate documents.  But if there are
>>>> multiple claims in a single credential, then those MUST be decomposable.
>>>> So they must be individually signed by the issuer.  There can ALSO be an
>>>> overall signature on the entire collection that verifies it was issued as a
>>>> block, but that's not that's for you as the holder - not for the processor..
>>>>
>>>>> A credential is in-turn, a document with http-signatures, and embedded
>>>>> linked data.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure
>>>>
>>>>> This in-turn could also be used to make other declarations, such as
>>>>> creative-commons, or other means to support restricted use requests.
>>>>>
>>>> I think we have not really explored how restricted use might be
>>>> implemented.  I am not an expert on such things, but (for example) signing
>>>> a claim in a way that if the validity is checked by dereferencing the link
>>>> to the signer that reference is only available until a time certain is one
>>>> way to implement it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Regardless of what's in the document, once it's been processed by the
>>>>> recipient, the data has been received and can be stored.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Of course.  What we are attempting is to improve the privacy and the
>>>> verifiability.  So a claim can only be VERIFIED by verifying the signature
>>>> and checking the associated URI.  An ephemeral URI is one way to limit that
>>>> verifiability in time.  Limiting it to specific participants is just a
>>>> matter of encrypting with the various participants.
>>>>
>>>> The data itself can't really be protected.  That's why it is so
>>>> important that it be decomposable. That way a holder can only disclose the
>>>> minimum information.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Are we agreeing or did I miss something?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tim.h.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 9 Aug 2016, 10:19 PM Shane McCarron <shane@spec-ops.io> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmm... actually, I don't think so.  I think that claims should be the
>>>>>> smallest grain possible.  An *identity* credential issued by a government
>>>>>> could have many many claims in it.  The subject is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - A citizen of this country
>>>>>>    - A citizen of this state
>>>>>>    - A citizen of this county
>>>>>>    - Living at an address xxx (or at least receives mail there)
>>>>>>    - Over 18
>>>>>>    - Over 21
>>>>>>    - Has a birthdate of x
>>>>>>    - Is authorized to operate a motor vehicle
>>>>>>    - etc...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Each of these is a distinct claim.  The privacy enhancement comes
>>>>>> from, in part, the holder being able to readily select which claim(s) are
>>>>>> being shared on an as needed basis, as well as with whom they are shared
>>>>>> and for how long.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I am shopping for wine, all they need to know is that I am over
>>>>>> 21.  Not my name nor my address. When I go to pay using my mobile device,
>>>>>> their mobile device reader asks me for proof of age.  My claim curator
>>>>>> service on my mobile device shows *me* a list of claims that I can use.  I
>>>>>> select one and it is shared with the requesting device (the claim
>>>>>> processor) for a very limited period of time.  Green light comes on.  I
>>>>>> take my wine and leave.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are obviously many many other use models, but they all boil
>>>>>> down to the holder being in control of sharing the least amount of
>>>>>> information possible, in a verifiable manner, with the least number of
>>>>>> processors, for the least amount of time.  That's privacy-enhancing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 9:02 PM, Timothy Holborn <
>>>>>> timothy.holborn@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it's more complex and can relate to the means in which a
>>>>>>> credential is formed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a credential could, for instance, have an array of counterparts.
>>>>>>>  thereby supporting both a claim relating to a birthdate in addition to
>>>>>>> independently supporting a claim that simply states 'over 18' without
>>>>>>> necessarily declaring the birthdate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> anything with a birth-date would also presumably support some sort
>>>>>>> of 'name' and other identity information.  whether these sorts of
>>>>>>> datapoints are required for various use-cases, ie: access to an adult
>>>>>>> website - really depends on the construction - yet also, is it not
>>>>>>> important for us to figure that out as a counterpart of what we're putting
>>>>>>> forward?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tim.H.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 at 11:51 Shane McCarron <shane@spec-ops.io>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FWIW I interpret privacy-enhancing as the ability for holders and
>>>>>>>> subjects of a claim to limit the verifiable exposure of information from
>>>>>>>> the claim to specific processors and for specific periods of time.  Or
>>>>>>>> something to that effect.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 7, 2016 at 3:57 PM, David Chadwick <
>>>>>>>> d.w.chadwick@kent.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Manu
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A couple of comments on the latest version
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> i) The first sentence could be formulated more precisely, as
>>>>>>>>> self-sovereign refers to credentials and not to standards. Similar
>>>>>>>>> comment applies tor privacy-enhancing. Therefore the following is
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> correct:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is currently no standard for expressing and transacting
>>>>>>>>> self-sovereign and privacy-enhancing verifiable claims (aka:
>>>>>>>>> credentials, attestations) via the Web.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ii) in 3.1 you ought to define what you mean by privacy-enhancing
>>>>>>>>> (regardless of the resolution of i) above). You have already
>>>>>>>>> defined
>>>>>>>>> self-sovereign
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> regards
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 06/08/2016 17:47, Manu Sporny wrote:
>>>>>>>>> > On 08/02/2016 12:24 PM, David Chadwick wrote:
>>>>>>>>> >> How about changing the first sentence of the problem statement
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > Based on Wendy Seltzer and Microsoft's feedback, as well as the
>>>>>>>>> > resulting feedback from the VCTF and CCG, the charter text has
>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>> > changed to reflect the consensus we have built as well as
>>>>>>>>> address the
>>>>>>>>> > concerns raised to date. Remember that we're not looking for the
>>>>>>>>> perfect
>>>>>>>>> > charter, but one that all of us can live with.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > The new charter can be found here:
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > http://w3c.github.io/webpayments-ig/VCTF/charter/rc-2.html
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > with a diff-marked copy here:
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > http://w3c.github.io/webpayments-ig/VCTF/charter/rc-2-diff.html
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > I suggest you look at the latter link if you're only interested
>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>> > changes from the previous draft charter.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > -- manu
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Shane McCarron
>>>>>>>> Projects Manager, Spec-Ops
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Shane McCarron
>>>>>> Projects Manager, Spec-Ops
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Shane McCarron
>>>> Projects Manager, Spec-Ops
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Shane McCarron
>> Projects Manager, Spec-Ops
>>
>
Received on Wednesday, 10 August 2016 15:24:03 UTC

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