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RE: [WCAG2 TECHS] i18n comment 5: H56 source text

From: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 17:19:08 -0000
To: "'Loretta Guarino Reid'" <lorettaguarino@google.com>
Cc: <public-comments-wcag20@w3.org>, <public-i18n-core@w3.org>
Message-ID: <00fb01c840d0$ef7003d0$6601a8c0@rishida>

Hello Loretta,

There are still some significant issues with the text in H34 and H56. I will
list them and suggest fixes below.



[a] In the first para of Example 1 there is what I suspect is an accidental
sentence "Inserting a Unicode right-to-left mark (via the HTML character
entity &#8207;) after the exclamation mark positions it correctly."  This
sentence is repeated (appropriately) later, but in this position creates
confusion about the example that immediately follows.  I recommend you just
delete that sentence. (It wasn't in my original suggested text at
http://www.w3.org/International/2007/11/wai-examples.html which you seem to
have used.)

[b] You have the text "(in this case via the HTML character entity
&#8207;)".  This introduces more than one problem: 

[b1] &#8207; is not a character entity (that would be &rlm;), it is a
numeric character reference (NCR)

[b2] looking at the source I don't see any evidence of an NCR or entity, so
others may also find this misleading (possibly caused during XSLT processing
of this document)

[b3] &#8207; is a decimal NCR; the Character Model recommends the use of
hex-based NCRs, ie. in this case &#x200F; (see
http://www.w3.org/TR/charmod/#C045).  This would also make it easier for
readers to relate to the description further up the page that shows hex
rather than decimal notation.

In my proposed rewrite I simply omitted that parenthetical remark to avoid
problems. That would be my recommendation here.  It is described in the text

[c] This is down to us.  We recently revisited ascii-only examples of bidi
text in the i18n WG, and we came up with a new proposal.  We now plan to use
an English translation for Arabic/Hebrew text, with characters running rtl,
and to upper case rtl text and lowercase ltr text. In short, I would suggest
that you replace

The title is "biula riiacm Hatfm!" in Arabic.


the title is "HCTIWS SDRADNATS BEW!" in arabic.

and do similar for the example with the exclamation mark to the left.



[d] The <span dir="ltr"> markup is not needed to correctly render the "W3C"
text and so should not be used. I doubt you need the language markup in this
case, either, since W3C is W3C in Hebrew. So I recommend you simply remove
the span around W3C. There is also a question about the appropriate ordering
of the text in the quote in the source - see the proposed text I mention in
[e] for what I think is a better approach.

[e] The example of the expected result actually comes out incorrectly,
because you didn't include the markup you show in the code example!  ;-)

To correct both of these issues, I propose you pick up the text I have added
to http://www.w3.org/International/2007/11/wai-examples.html for you as a
replacement for Example 1 of H56.

Note that you will need to pick up the source text for the examples
containing Hebrew text on that page, since two of them contain spans with
dir='rlt' to make the quote look as intended.


Hope that helps.


Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Loretta Guarino Reid [mailto:lorettaguarino@google.com] 
> Sent: 11 December 2007 23:28
> To: Richard Ishida
> Cc: public-comments-wcag20@w3.org; public-i18n-core@w3.org
> Subject: Re: [WCAG2 TECHS] i18n comment 5: H56 source text
> We have updated  H34 per your suggestions. We have updated 
> the example in H56 to show the entire title within the rtl 
> span, with "W3C"
> enclosed in a nested span with dir="ltr". Thank you for your help.
> Regards,
> Loretta Guarino Reid, WCAG WG Co-Chair
> Gregg Vanderheiden, WCAG WG Co-Chair
> Michael Cooper, WCAG WG Staff Contact
> On behalf of the WCAG Working Group
> On Nov 16, 2007 10:00 AM, Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org> wrote:
> >
> > Unfortunately, the example shown will produce exactly the wrong 
> > result.  The ", W3C" text must appear inside the span element to 
> > produce the expected result.
> >
> > If you change the example, however, you will run into the 
> problem of 
> > how to show source text in a sensible fashion, since the hebrew is 
> > running right to left, and W3C must run left to right and 
> be positioned to the left.
> >
> > I suggest that you describe the source text rather than 
> show it. Eg. 
> > "... o the left of (i.e. after) the Hebrew text. This can 
> be achieved 
> > by enclosing the quote in a span, to which the attribute 
> code dir="rtl" has been added."
> >
> > I would also be tempted to show before and after examples, 
> like those 
> > I suggested for 
> > 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2007OctDec/0135.h
> > tml If you want to do that, and need me to help provide 
> examples and 
> > visually-ordered ascii, let me know.  (I didn't do it just in case, 
> > because it takes a while to create them.)
> >
> > RI
> >
> >
> > ============
> > Richard Ishida
> > Internationalization Lead
> > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/International/
> > http://rishida.net/blog/
> > http://rishida.net/
> >
Received on Monday, 17 December 2007 17:16:19 UTC

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