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OFF TOPIC (was Re: proposed change of language for common words)

From: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 09:59:15 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKdCpxydNM_pXxGJ3aOK_90TAy=0zbtpO1Z6Qz51yQ9o-749LQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: public-cognitive-a11y-tf <public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Cc: Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu>, "lisa.seeman" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>, Mary Jo Mueller <maryjom@us.ibm.com>
Hi All,

Sadly, Barry Johnson passed about 2 weeks ago, losing his brave fight with
cancer. The entire Deque family is understandably saddened to lose a
colleague at such a young age, and we are collectively tidying up loose
ends this week.

As such, I have recently removed Barry's participation in W3C activities
(and completing this request).

Thanks for your understanding.

JF


On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 6:22 AM, Barry Johnson <barry.johnson@deque.com>
wrote:

>
> Please remove Barry Johnson from this discussion group. We are slowly
> clearing his emails and addressing any unfinished business.  He valued this
> group greatly!  But I can not contribute to your work as a pediatric nurse.
>
> Thank you for all you do
>
> His wife -Cyndy
> Cyndywj@gmail.com
> ***********************************
> *Barry Johnson, CPACC*
> Senior Accessibility Consultant | Deque Systems, Inc.
> Phone:  301-367-0014 | E-mail:  barry.johnson@deque.com
> Follow us on Twitter <https://twitter.com/dequesystems>, LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/company/deque-systems-inc>, and Facebook
> <https://www.facebook.com/dequesystems>.
> Skype - bwjohnson.dq
>
> On May 9, 2017, at 1:16 PM, Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu> wrote:
>
> what exception?
>
> Lisa, I think you are missing the points that John and I are trying to
> make.
>
> The purpose for having a word list of 1500 words is to restrict the words
> to common words that everyone would understand.   But that is not possible.
>   Which is our point.
>
> You replied saying that each author could make a different word list for
> their site.
>
>    - We don’t see how that will help.
>    - I gave one example — and John gave another to show how each author
>    creating a different 1500 word list for their site would not work.
>    - The only way this would help a person understand the site would be
>    for them to download and learn all the words on those special lists that
>    they do not already know
>
>
> You now say that that site would be an exception.
>
> How would it be an exception — and how many other sites would  (medical,
> physics, games, sites about game of thrones, Klingon, different languages,
> gardening, biology )  and how do you decide which?
>
> *g*
>
> Gregg C Vanderheiden
> greggvan@umd.edu
>
>
>
>
> On May 7, 2017, at 6:06 AM, lisa.seeman <lisa.seeman@zoho.com> wrote:
>
> Hi John
>
> the Shakespeare site would fall under the exception. If that is not clear
> we can explain it further in the write up.
>
> frequently used words are the words that a person with a communication
> disorder are more likely to know. This is true also in professional domains
> such as programming or engineering where some of the terms may not be in a
> core vocablery for the language  but will be known to people with a
> communication disorder who are working in the profession. It  makes it
> possible for professional sites to conform and people with cognitive and
> learning disabilities to work in that profession or field, including as
> they age.
> I will try and discuss it more on the call.
>
> How will that word list be discover-able? you have some good ideas there
> John - I think once we agree on the principle we can decide as a group if
> we want to require that the lists are discoverable form the site or only
> referenced in a compliance
>
>
> All the best
>
> Lisa Seeman
>
> LinkedIn <http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>
>
>
>
>
> ---- On Fri, 05 May 2017 21:21:38 +0300 *John
> Foliot<john.foliot@deque.com <john.foliot@deque.com>>* wrote ----
>
> Following on to Gregg's questions:
>
>    - How will that word list be discover-able? (Does it need to be? - I
>    presume yes for testing / compliance-verification purposes)
>
>    - Is the requirement then also mandating that the word list be made
>    publicly available from the affected site? How? Where?
>    (For example, is the Task Force contemplating something like <link
>    rel="wordlist" href="path_to_wordlist">, after registering a new @rel value
>    here: http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values?)
>
>
> If I have a website that focuses on Shakespearean English, I could likely
> generate a frequency list of 1500 words of "Shakesperean English" which,
> without a corresponding Glossary, would be quite meaningless to numerous
> users (and not just users specifically dealing with COGA issues).
>
> In all of his work – the plays, the sonnets and the narrative poems –
> Shakespeare uses 17,677 words. Of those words, Shakespeare ‘invented’ an
> incredible 1,700 of them! (http://www.nosweatshakespeare
> .com/resources/shakespeare-words/)
>
>
> > It is not any list -  it is a word frequency list for the context.
>
> I'm sorry Lisa, but I'm still not seeing the actual benefit of generating
> a word frequency list - as Gregg notes
> ​,​
> that list could be unique for each of hundreds of sites.
>
> Can
> ​the COGA-TF
>  detail the direct correlation between providing a word frequency list and
> how that benefits users with some forms of cognitive disability - I really
> am trying to understand. Thanks.
>
> JF
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu>
> wrote:
>
> that was my point
>
> If each site creates its own list — then how does that help the reader?
>  are they supposed to look at each unique list and then learn the new words
> on it before viewing the site?
>
> Does this mean that you have only to limit the unique words in your
> navigation to 1500 unique words?
>
>
>
>
>
> *g*
>
> Gregg C Vanderheiden
> greggvan@umd.edu
>
>
>
>
> On May 5, 2017, at 12:05 AM, lisa.seeman <lisa.seeman@zoho.com> wrote:
>
> It is not any list -  it is a word frequency list for the context. There
> will be an explanation of how to build on as well as links to open source
> scripts.
>
> When we wrote this and looked at different word frequency lists we found
> that 1500 is quite a large list, and included words like file"and translate
>  and it is only for specific contexts (such as sites for a given
> profession) that might need to have a specific list,
> Globish, for example, is 1500 words.
>
>
> All the best
>
> Lisa Seeman
>
> LinkedIn <http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>
>
>
>
>
> ---- On Thu, 04 May 2017 22:14:34 +0300 *Gregg C
> Vanderheiden<greggvan@umd.edu <greggvan@umd.edu>>* wrote ----
>
> two points
>
> 1) so how can I fail?
>
>    - if I use less than 1500 different words in my navigation — and I
>    compile a list of 1500 from my navigation elements — it will always pass be
>    definition.   Any list?
>
>
>
>
>    - if the list is a list I pick so that it covers the words I use — how
>    does that help a user who doestn now those words?
>
>
>
>
>    - if you build it for URLs that are any reasonable size sites — you
>    will find the most common words are mostly the same and look like     “of,
>    the and with  because etc.     and it still won’t cover the technical
>    terms.    and if it did — why are we assuming that users will know the
>    technical terms on this website.
>
>
> I’m kind of confused as to the underlying model.   It looks like we are
> stretching our language to cover individual issues as they come up?
>
> (we looked at plain language for a year and a half when doing WCAG 2.0   —
> and kept running into these same walls.  And we had John Slatin - a huge
> advocate for plain language as co-chair and lead on this in one of our
> rounds  (we actually took runs at this a couple times — bringing in plain
> language experts when we did.)
>
> this is a great topic — but we could not find a way to address it.
>
> I am hoping that we can soon create a plain language Assistive technology
> - that can take text and translate it into diffferent levels of plain
> language  like we translate between languages  — so that the same
> provisions that make all text available to other AT can make it available
> to plain language AT.   This also has the advantage that such assistive
> technology can take into account the words known by each user. and also the
> language level of the user
>
>
>
> g
>
> On May 4, 2017, at 2:51 PM, lisa.seeman <lisa.seeman@zoho.com> wrote:
>
> You can use any list for the context. There is a open source script for
> building a list from a list of URLS.
>
> You can build an application using the  most-common form to refer to the
> concept  for this context in navigation element and controls.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> John Foliot
> Principal Accessibility Strategist
> Deque Systems Inc.
> john.foliot@deque.com
>
> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
John Foliot
Principal Accessibility Strategist
Deque Systems Inc.
john.foliot@deque.com

Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
Received on Wednesday, 10 May 2017 14:59:53 UTC

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