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Re: OFF TOPIC (was Re: proposed change of language for common words)

From: Joshue O Connor <josh@interaccess.ie>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2017 18:20:47 +0100
Message-ID: <59134BEF.2070106@interaccess.ie>
To: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
CC: public-cognitive-a11y-tf <public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Thank you John for letting us know. Our condolences and thoughts are 
with his family.

Sincerely

Josh

John Foliot wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Sadly, Barry Johnson passed about 2 weeks ago, losing his brave fight 
> with cancer. The entire Deque family is understandably saddened to 
> lose a colleague at such a young age, and we are collectively tidying 
> up loose ends this week.
>
> As such, I have recently removed Barry's participation in W3C 
> activities (and completing this request).
>
> Thanks for your understanding.
>
> JF
>
>
> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 6:22 AM, Barry Johnson 
> <barry.johnson@deque.com <mailto:barry.johnson@deque.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     Please remove Barry Johnson from this discussion group. We are
>     slowly clearing his emails and addressing any unfinished
>     business.  He valued this group greatly!  But I can not contribute
>     to your work as a pediatric nurse.
>
>     Thank you for all you do
>
>     His wife -Cyndy
>     Cyndywj@gmail.com <mailto:Cyndywj@gmail.com>
>     ***********************************
>     *Barry Johnson, CPACC*
>     Senior AccessibilityConsultant | Deque Systems, Inc.
>     Phone: 301-367-0014 <tel:301-367-0014> | E-mail:
>     barry.johnson@deque.com <mailto:barry.johnson@deque.com>
>     Follow us on Twitter <https://twitter.com/dequesystems>, LinkedIn
>     <http://www.linkedin.com/company/deque-systems-inc>, and Facebook
>     <https://www.facebook.com/dequesystems>.
>     Skype - bwjohnson.dq
>
>     On May 9, 2017, at 1:16 PM, Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu
>     <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>> wrote:
>
>>     what exception?
>>
>>     Lisa, I think you are missing the points that John and I are
>>     trying to make.
>>
>>     The purpose for having a word list of 1500 words is to restrict
>>     the words to common words that everyone would understand.   But
>>     that is not possible.   Which is our point.
>>
>>     You replied saying that each author could make a different word
>>     list for their site.
>>
>>       * We don’t see how that will help.
>>       * I gave one example — and John gave another to show how each
>>         author creating a different 1500 word list for their site
>>         would not work.
>>       * The only way this would help a person understand the site
>>         would be for them to download and learn all the words on
>>         those special lists that they do not already know
>>
>>
>>     You now say that that site would be an exception.
>>
>>     How would it be an exception — and how many other sites would
>>      (medical, physics, games, sites about game of thrones, Klingon,
>>     different languages, gardening, biology )  and how do you decide
>>     which?
>>
>>     /g/
>>
>>     Gregg C Vanderheiden
>>     greggvan@umd.edu <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>     On May 7, 2017, at 6:06 AM, lisa.seeman <lisa.seeman@zoho.com
>>>     <mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Hi John
>>>
>>>     the Shakespeare site would fall under the exception. If that is
>>>     not clear we can explain it further in the write up.
>>>
>>>     frequently used words are the words that a person with a
>>>     communication disorder are more likely to know. This is true
>>>     also in professional domains such as programming or engineering
>>>     where some of the terms may not be in a core vocablery for the
>>>     language  but will be known to people with a communication
>>>     disorder who are working in the profession. It  makes it
>>>     possible for professional sites to conform and people with
>>>     cognitive and learning disabilities to work in that profession
>>>     or field, including as they age.
>>>     I will try and discuss it more on the call.
>>>
>>>     How will that word list be discover-able? you have some good
>>>     ideas there John - I think once we agree on the principle we can
>>>     decide as a group if we want to require that the lists are
>>>     discoverable form the site or only referenced in a compliance
>>>
>>>
>>>     All the best
>>>
>>>     Lisa Seeman
>>>
>>>     LinkedIn <http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter
>>>     <https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     ---- On Fri, 05 May 2017 21:21:38 +0300 *John
>>>     Foliot<john.foliot@deque.com <mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>>*
>>>     wrote ----
>>>
>>>         Following on to Gregg's questions:
>>>
>>>           * How will that word list be discover-able? (Does it need
>>>             to be? - I presume yes for testing /
>>>             compliance-verification purposes)
>>>
>>>           * Is the requirement then also mandating that the word
>>>             list be made publicly available from the affected site?
>>>             How? Where?
>>>             (For example, is the Task Force contemplating something
>>>             like <link rel="wordlist" href="path_to_wordlist">,
>>>             after registering a new @rel value here:
>>>             http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
>>>             <http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values>?)
>>>
>>>
>>>         If I have a website that focuses on Shakespearean English, I
>>>         could likely generate a frequency list of 1500 words of
>>>         "Shakesperean English" which, without a corresponding
>>>         Glossary, would be quite meaningless to numerous users (and
>>>         not just users specifically dealing with COGA issues).
>>>
>>>             In all of his work – the plays, the sonnets and the
>>>             narrative poems – Shakespeare uses 17,677 words. Of
>>>             those words, Shakespeare ‘invented’ an incredible 1,700
>>>             of them!
>>>             (http://www.nosweatshakespeare.com/resources/shakespeare-words/
>>>             <http://www.nosweatshakespeare.com/resources/shakespeare-words/>)
>>>
>>>
>>>         > It is not any list -  it is a word frequency list for the
>>>         context.
>>>
>>>         I'm sorry Lisa, but I'm still not seeing the actual benefit
>>>         of generating a word frequency list - as Gregg notes
>>>         ​,​
>>>         that list could be unique for each of hundreds of sites.
>>>
>>>         Can
>>>         ​the COGA-TF
>>>          detail the direct correlation between providing a word
>>>         frequency list and how that benefits users with some forms
>>>         of cognitive disability - I really am trying to understand.
>>>         Thanks.
>>>
>>>         JF
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Gregg C Vanderheiden
>>>         <greggvan@umd.edu <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             that was my point
>>>
>>>             If each site creates its own list — then how does that
>>>             help the reader?    are they supposed to look at each
>>>             unique list and then learn the new words on it before
>>>             viewing the site?
>>>
>>>             Does this mean that you have only to limit the unique
>>>             words in your navigation to 1500 unique words?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>             /g/
>>>
>>>             Gregg C Vanderheiden
>>>             greggvan@umd.edu <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                 On May 5, 2017, at 12:05 AM, lisa.seeman
>>>                 <lisa.seeman@zoho.com <mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>>
>>>                 wrote:
>>>
>>>                 It is not any list -  it is a word frequency list
>>>                 for the context. There will be an explanation of how
>>>                 to build on as well as links to open source scripts.
>>>
>>>                 When we wrote this and looked at different word
>>>                 frequency lists we found that 1500 is quite a large
>>>                 list, and included words like file"and translate
>>>                  and it is only for specific contexts (such as sites
>>>                 for a given profession) that might need to have a
>>>                 specific list,
>>>                 Globish, for example, is 1500 words.
>>>
>>>
>>>                 All the best
>>>
>>>                 Lisa Seeman
>>>
>>>                 LinkedIn <http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>,
>>>                 Twitter <https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                 ---- On Thu, 04 May 2017 22:14:34 +0300 *Gregg C
>>>                 Vanderheiden<greggvan@umd.edu
>>>                 <mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>>* wrote ----
>>>
>>>                     two points
>>>
>>>                     1) so how can I fail?
>>>
>>>                       * if I use less than 1500 different words in
>>>                         my navigation — and I compile a list of 1500
>>>                         from my navigation elements — it will always
>>>                         pass be definition.   Any list?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                       * if the list is a list I pick so that it
>>>                         covers the words I use — how does that help
>>>                         a user who doestn now those words? 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                       * if you build it for URLs that are any
>>>                         reasonable size sites — you will find the
>>>                         most common words are mostly the same and
>>>                         look like     “of, the and with  because
>>>                         etc.     and it still won’t cover the
>>>                         technical terms.    and if it did — why are
>>>                         we assuming that users will know the
>>>                         technical terms on this website. 
>>>
>>>
>>>                     I’m kind of confused as to the underlying model.
>>>                       It looks like we are stretching our language
>>>                     to cover individual issues as they come up?
>>>
>>>                     (we looked at plain language for a year and a
>>>                     half when doing WCAG 2.0   — and kept running
>>>                     into these same walls.  And we had John Slatin -
>>>                     a huge advocate for plain language as co-chair
>>>                     and lead on this in one of our rounds  (we
>>>                     actually took runs at this a couple times —
>>>                     bringing in plain language experts when we did.)
>>>
>>>                     this is a great topic — but we could not find a
>>>                     way to address it.
>>>
>>>                     I am hoping that we can soon create a plain
>>>                     language Assistive technology - that can take
>>>                     text and translate it into diffferent levels of
>>>                     plain language  like we translate between
>>>                     languages  — so that the same provisions that
>>>                     make all text available to other AT can make it
>>>                     available to plain language AT.   This also has
>>>                     the advantage that such assistive technology can
>>>                     take into account the words known by each user.
>>>                     and also the language level of the user
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                     g
>>>
>>>                         On May 4, 2017, at 2:51 PM, lisa.seeman
>>>                         <lisa.seeman@zoho.com
>>>                         <mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                         You can use any list for the context. There
>>>                         is a open source script for building a list
>>>                         from a list of URLS.
>>>
>>>                         You can build an application using the
>>>                         most-common form to refer to the concept 
>>>                         for this context in navigation element and
>>>                         controls.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         -- 
>>>         John Foliot
>>>         Principal Accessibility Strategist
>>>         Deque Systems Inc.
>>>         john.foliot@deque.com <mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>
>>>
>>>         Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> John Foliot
> Principal Accessibility Strategist
> Deque Systems Inc.
> john.foliot@deque.com <mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>
>
> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion

-- 
Joshue O Connor
Director | InterAccess.ie
Received on Wednesday, 10 May 2017 19:08:22 UTC

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