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[minutes] BPWG Teleconference 2008-10-09

From: Francois Daoust <fd@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 17:56:27 +0200
Message-ID: <48EE29AB.20301@w3.org>
To: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group WG <public-bpwg@w3.org>

Hi,

The minutes of today's call are available at:
  http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-bpwg-minutes.html

... and copied as text below.


As a TODO for everyone: Review and comment the new Addendum:
  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Oct/0001.html

Francois.


09 Oct 2008

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Oct/0013.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-bpwg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Francois, rob, adam, DKA, jo, Bryan_Sullivan, Sangwhan_Moon,
           nacho, brucel, abel, manrique, DavidStorey, yeliz, kai

    Regrets
           Miguel, SeanP, dom, hgerlach, AlanC, jeffs

    Chair
           DKA

    Scribe
           yeliz

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Content Transformation TF
          2. [6]Korea (if present)
          3. [7]Checker
          4. [8]Mobile Accessibility
          5. [9]BP 1.5
          6. [10]mobileOK scheme
          7. [11]BP 2.0
          8. [12]ISSUE-277
          9. [13]ISSUE-279
         10. [14]ISSUE-278
         11. [15]ISSUE-247
         12. [16]Closing actions...
      * [17]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

Content Transformation TF

    Francois: On Tuesday we had a good discussion, and send an email to
    IETF TLS Working Group, we are moving forward, but still take time

    Bryan: wasn't on that call, I send a list of comments in response to
    Tom's comment
    ... since we decided to look into that in more details
    ... we need to address the points I raised.
    ... people need to be aware of that, it is an important topic

    Francois: Yes. I re-read your comments before sending the email to
    the IETF TLS WG to make sure I was not forgetting some crucial
    point.
    ... I am not sure if at the end we will end up with more detailed
    guidelines
    ... but we have to make sure that we understand the big pictures and
    the caveats
    ... before we write down things to the spec

    Bryan: just wanted to raise those points

    Francois: I don't think it will be ready by the end of f2f meeting,
    unfortunately

    DKA: will add that to agenda, how much time we should spend on the
    agenda
    ... could easily spend a day

    Francois: one day too much, half day fantastic

Korea (if present)

    DKA: anyone from Korea?

Checker

    Abel: little bit activity in the mailing list
    ... some people asking how to use but nothing new in the development

    DKA: anything that needs to be done in the f2f regarding checker
    ... what time would u like with the checker

    Abel: not sure
    ... HTTPS stuff would be good to discuss

    DKA: clarification?

    Jo: I think we will be done with this before the f2f but the change
    we proposed to mobileOK Basic Tests doesn't seem to work for the WSC
    WG

    Francois: re. the final change on HTTPS, we need to address it ASAP,
    even though I don't think we can publish it before the F2F
    ... Jo do you have time to work on this?

    Jo: I will do that tomorrow

    Francois: Fantastic

Mobile Accessibility

    DKA: Regarding Shawn's email to the public list, anything to discuss
    there

    <Jo: Yeliz is looking for feedback from several people, including
    me, I think

    <Yeliz: yes, I addressed all the feedback I received in the latest
    version

    <Jo: my assumption is that when that is done, we're done, right?

    <Yeliz: yes.

    <Yeliz: I won't be able to attend the F2F meeting.

    <Yeliz: The EOWG is happy with this version.

BP 1.5

    Jo: haven't seen any comment in the mailing list, I think we need to
    action everybody for that

    <DKA>
    [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Oct/0001.htm
    l

      [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Oct/0001.html

    DKA: theme for feedback, free chocolate
    ... I will provide the chocolate, it works for 7 years old

mobileOK scheme

    Jo: I haven't seen anything happened
    ... I believe Phil was redrafting

    DKA: I think he is going to be in town because
    ... I can't see the result, Francois you need to tell us..

    <francois> [Phil is not attending on Monday, and is attending the
    Semantic Web IG on Tuesday]

BP 2.0

    <DKA>
    [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Oct/0014.htm
    l

      [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Oct/0014.html

    DKA: can you take us through this current draft

    Adam: relatively small changes
    ... tackle namely those minor comments
    ... Added a new section,
    ... will try to fold in new useful best practices and also some more
    that have been emailed to the list
    ... so that we can also discuss at F2F

    Jo: we need to have a stable draft before F2F
    ... we need to have the changes before the F2F

    Will do it before the beginning of next week

    DKA: will read it before the meeting
    ... anything else we need to discuss about this document?
    ... I can think of one more thing, latency section
    ... change it around, etc

    Adam: I think some of the sections need refactoring
    ... For example, one Web, not sure what the intend of this

    DKA: The intend is ...

    Adam: There are issues raised with respect to Bryan's comments, or
    may be we want to read it before
    ... We got some open issues that Bryan raised, I addressed those so
    we can discuss those
    ... so we can discuss my changes

    DKA: why don't we discuss those
    ... do you want to introduce them?

    <francois> [20]Open issues per product

      [20] 
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/open?sort=product

    Adam: can somebody open the issues

    <DKA> [21]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/open

      [21] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/open

    <adam>
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/E
    D-mobile-bp2-20081008

      [22] 
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20081008

    Adam: ?
    ... here is the document

    Kai: any easy way of versioning on HTML documents?

    <jo> [23]Dom's Diffatron

      [23] http://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff

    DKA: I got the list of issues here

ISSUE-277

    <jo> ISSUE-277?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-277 -- 3.3.1 Inform user about automatic network
    access and provide control -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/277

      [24] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/277

    DKA: is it worth going through these
    ... ? and we can close the issue

    <francois> [25]section 3.1.1

      [25] 
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20081008#bp-inform-automation

    Adam: I separated out the whole section and added in some more
    details about what kind of information can be used to inform the
    user
    ... lost all my links

    <jo> close ISSUE-277

    Adam: I haven't done that - Issue: 279
    ... Automatic access, when is the good place to it, I couldn't think
    of anything else
    ... do people have some ideas on this?

ISSUE-279

    <francois> ISSUE-279

    <francois> ISSUE-279?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-279 -- 4.3.3 Provide Disclosures that are Timely
    and Accessible -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/279

      [26] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/279

    DKA: add an action to complete that

    <jo> ACTION: Bryan to propose text ref ISSUE-279 [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-861 - Propose text ref ISSUE-279 [on Bryan
    Sullivan - due 2008-10-16].

ISSUE-278

    <DKA> ISSUE-278?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-278 -- 3.3.2 Inform user about use of PIM
    information -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/278

      [28] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/278

    <jo> ISSUE-278?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-278 -- 3.3.2 Inform user about use of PIM
    information -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/278

      [29] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/278

    Adam: Thank, kind of works for me

    <francois> [30]section 3.3.2

      [30] 
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/Drafts/BestPractices-2.0/ED-mobile-bp2-20081008#bp-inform-personalinfo

    Adam: I added all kinds of things that the user could do to address
    that

    Bryan: When you say PIM are you talking about context server?

    Adam: In section 3.3.2 there is a bulleted list
    ... I have to go through my notes to check the changes

    DKA: Any other issues that we can close
    ... ?

    Adam: best to stay for f2f, 3.1.1 retains personalisation
    information... Need to refactor and find another home for that, best
    to discuss at F2F

    <scribe> ACTION: Adam to send email about issues [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-862 - Send email about issues [on Adam
    Connors - due 2008-10-16].

    Bryan: I won't be at F2F
    ... needs discussion on whole notion of tailoring your
    content/application for device
    ... what my user agent is? how user agents discloses its identity
    and capability
    ... I made some precise comments.
    ... It is not well received with this group which puzzled me

    DKA: Web apps group done a lot of work...
    ... both BP1 and BP2 based on the idea that you have information
    about the device and you build UI based on that knowledge
    ... how you get that device knowledge? maybe that's why we try to be
    away from that

    Bryan: Other group is working on..
    ... This group is working on...

    DKA: didn't your ... Browser is a web application, little semantic
    difference

    Bryan: I looked at phone widgets and other widgets, they all
    disclose information about their identity and capability in the
    headers

    DKA: Maybe I am wrong, but we assumed that you have a device
    knowledge
    ... we have agreed to explore in the document...In BP 2, we agreed
    to specify device knowledge you need

    Bryan: how to differentiate from one vendor to the other

    DKA: talking about adding something to the response header

    Bryan: I was referring to the HTTP request and if you look at XHR,
    you'll see that the ability to add on the User-Agent, Accept headers
    is there
    ... weak identity
    .... you can also tweak the Accept header.

    DKA: we need some public feedback
    ... we need to document that issue in the draft and seek public
    feedback

    Jo: I don't see emergency in this, I don't see the use case right
    now, because web apps talk to their mother server

    Bryan: web application...who they are, what they can do? what they
    expect
    ... you have all the capabilities of all those APIs

    <DKA> s/wurfl/device atlas/

    Adam: Web app on the client need to know the device to render
    properly, may be there are use to
    ... I haven't see an email to the mailing list, a use case? I have
    difficulty understanding the use case

    <jo> 4. The XMLHttpRequest Object

    <jo> The XMLHttpRequest object can be used by scripts to
    programmatically connect to their originating server via HTTP.

    DKA: the text will be changed

    Jo: we can't talk about a recommendation that does not exist today
    ... we cannot just guess

    DKA: any other comments?

    Francois: amending the HTTP User-Agent to identify the Web App could
    be useful when there is a Content Transformation proxy on the line
    to tell that it is not intended for browsing, intended to be
    processed by Web apps, a real use case? don't have a clear opinion

    DKA: there might be some arguments...Need feedback
    ... it's clear you could do...
    ... it makes sense to seek for public feedback

    Bryan: I can also raise a issue, I can't see how...

    DKA: request feedback on this point
    ... no feedback...it doesn't mean anything
    ... need feedback yes or no..
    ... public discussion...
    ... there is a new W3C group to..

ISSUE-247

    <francois> ISSUE-247?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-247 -- What advices can we offer on the use of
    geolocation in mobile web applications? -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/247

      [32] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/247

    DKA: in my view, I encourage everybody to check the charter and
    possibly join the group
    ... we can close the issue
    ... any other comments?
    ... may be we do need something in the document

    Jo: we don't have to ... in the document

    <adam> +1

    Jo: we can't have a best practice that relates to a rec that hasn't
    been written

    Adam: just a long list of ...

    DKA: lets close this issue

    <francois> close ISSUE-247

    DKA: are there other issues or actions that people would like to
    discuss?

    <Sangwhan_Moon> ISSUE-276?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-276 -- 3.1.1 Retain Personalization Information --
    RAISED

    <trackbot>
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/276

      [33] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/276

Closing actions...

    DKA: I like to close action 851

    <francois> ACTION-851?

    <trackbot> ACTION-851 -- Daniel Appelquist to write to WebApps to
    see if we could hold a joint meeting during TPAC F2F -- due
    2008-10-02 -- OPEN

    <trackbot>
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/851

      [34] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/851

    <jo> close ACTION-851

    <francois> Close ACTION-851

    <trackbot> ACTION-851 Write to WebApps to see if we could hold a
    joint meeting during TPAC F2F closed

    <trackbot> ACTION-851 Write to WebApps to see if we could hold a
    joint meeting during TPAC F2F closed

    <jo> close action-839

    <trackbot> ACTION-839 Arrange BP 2.0 editorial meeting to fit in
    with his hectic globe trotting schedule closed

    ACTION-839?

    <trackbot> ACTION-839 -- Daniel Appelquist to arrange BP 2.0
    editorial meeting to fit in with his hectic globe trotting schedule
    -- due 2008-09-11 -- CLOSED

    <trackbot>
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/839

      [35] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/839

    DKA: any other actions that people have completed?

    <francois> ACTION-849?

    <trackbot> ACTION-849 -- Fran├žois Daoust to check about missing
    Korean participants -- due 2008-09-25 -- PENDINGREVIEW

    <trackbot>
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/849

      [36] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/849

    <francois> close ACTION-849

    <trackbot> ACTION-849 Check about missing Korean participants closed

    Francois: action 849 can be closed as well

    <francois> Close ACTION-856

    <trackbot> ACTION-856 Chase WSC WG ref proposed change to mobileOK
    Basic closed

    ACTION-841?

    <trackbot> ACTION-841 -- Jo Rabin to review WSC comment and propose
    new wording -- due 2008-09-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW

    <trackbot>
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/841

      [37] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/841

    <jo> close ACTION-841

    <trackbot> ACTION-841 Review WSC comment and propose new wording
    closed

    Jo: action 841 could be closed?

    <jo> ACTION-851

    <jo> ACTION-851?

    <trackbot> ACTION-851 -- Daniel Appelquist to write to WebApps to
    see if we could hold a joint meeting during TPAC F2F -- due
    2008-10-02 -- CLOSED

    <trackbot>
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/851

      [38] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/851

    ACTION-859?

    <trackbot> ACTION-859 -- Fran├žois Daoust to contact IETF TLS group
    and advise them of what we are thinking and ask for guidance on what
    to recommend to Content Provider about detecting the presence of a
    man-in-the-middle proxy -- due 2008-10-14 -- PENDINGREVIEW

    <trackbot>
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/859

      [39] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/859

    <jo> ACTION-841?

    <trackbot> ACTION-841 -- Jo Rabin to review WSC comment and propose
    new wording -- due 2008-09-11 -- CLOSED

    <trackbot>
    [40]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/841

      [40] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/841

    <Kai> We can close 837

    ACTION-837?

    <trackbot> ACTION-837 -- Kai Scheppe to provide explanatory text for
    the addendum which will put the document (mobileOK Pro Tests 1) in
    the correct context and explain to the audience that it is intended
    to aid content authors in creating still better content. -- due
    2008-09-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW

    <trackbot>
    [41]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/837

      [41] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/837

    <jo> ACTION: Jo to reword following WSC WG feedback on proposed
    changes to mobileOK Basic [recorded in
    [42]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-863 - Reword following WSC WG feedback on
    proposed changes to mobileOK Basic [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-10-16].

    <francois> [43]Actions pending review

      [43] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/pendingreview

    ACTION-792?

    <trackbot> ACTION-792 -- Abel Rionda to propose some text on SVG --
    due 2008-07-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW

    <trackbot>
    [44]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/792

      [44] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/792

    DKA: we don't have any txt on SVG
    ... the text is actually here

    <DKA>
    [45]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Jul/0090.htm
    l

      [45] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Jul/0090.html

    DKA: we need to think about his, Adam r u aware of this?

    <Kai> close action-739

    <trackbot> ACTION-739 Summarize (again) discussion on Ajax/XHR and
    propose some resolutions closed

    Adam: probably not

    DKA: web developers might want to SVG, ...working group is working a
    format to encourage people use SVG
    ... what I suggest Adam review the input and then give feedback to
    the group

    Adam: that sounds good
    ... will print out and give feedback

    DKA: Action on Adam and Bryan ...
    ... discuss in the next 10 mnutes
    ... ?

    <Kai> close action-793

    <trackbot> ACTION-793 Work with Scott to produce proposed text on
    caching that goes beyond BP 1 closed

    DKA: suggest action Adam to review people and Bryan should also
    review
    ... suggest to close the call?
    ... any F2F logistical issue?

    Francois: no
    ... we will have the polycom on both Monday and Tuesyda

    DKA: Bryan can you please let us know the times you are available
    ... send your availability to the mailing list
    ... then we can arrange the agenda to schedule the BP2 time around
    that

    Bryan: do you know time difference? 11 hours?

    DKA: any other items?
    ... thanks everybody

    <nacho> bye everyone

    <francois> s/Will do it before the begining of next week/Adam: Will
    do it before the begining of next week/

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Adam to send email about issues [recorded in
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Bryan to propose text ref ISSUE-279 [recorded in
    [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: Jo to reword following WSC WG feedback on proposed
    changes to mobileOK Basic [recorded in
    [48]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]

    [End of minutes]
Received on Thursday, 9 October 2008 15:57:02 UTC

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