Re: Accname question regarding self-references

Maybe I don't understand the question but I always thought the 
accessible name calculation had a hierarchy of aria-labelledby, 
aria-label, then label tag.  Like I said, I think I'm not understanding 
that part of the question but I do agree that the value shouldn't be 
part of the name here.

Curt


On 1/5/2021 5:51 AM, Scott O'Hara wrote:
> Agreed with "A".  Value shouldn't be part of the accessible name in 
> this example.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Carolyn MacLeod <Carolyn_MacLeod@ca.ibm.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, January 4, 2021 11:53 PM
> *To:* nurthen@adobe.com <nurthen@adobe.com>
> *Cc:* jongund@illinois.edu <jongund@illinois.edu>; public-aria@w3.org 
> <public-aria@w3.org>; sina@sinabahram.com <sina@sinabahram.com>
> *Subject:* RE: Accname question regarding self-references
> I would have thought it was A. "The Label ariaLabel".
> FYI, Bryan's AccName Prototype Test page 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://whatsock.github.io/w3c-alternative-text-computation/Editable*20Live*20Input*20AccName*20Test.html__;JSUlJQ!!GqivPVa7Brio!Je2_N8c42cSuB1C85J2qX8xwxoweaqVayYrTbTMRl6bPjXshBU3KkAXBKBMj5WRGqg$> says 
> the accessible name is simply "The Label".
> I'm not sure whether that's intentional, or perhaps the prototype 
> doesn't handle the self-referential aria-labelledby?
> Note that if you want to try the prototype, the id of the element 
> being tested needs to be "test" so I changed James' code a tiny bit, to:
> <span id="label">The Label</span>
> <input id="test" aria-label="ariaLabel" aria-labelledby="label test" 
> value="the value">
> Paste the above code into the second textarea and then click the Paste 
> & Test button.
> The accessible name will be displayed in the first textarea.
> I thought for sure there was a WCAG Technique for this, but the 
> closest I can find is ARIA9 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://w3c.github.io/wcag/techniques/aria/ARIA9__;!!GqivPVa7Brio!Je2_N8c42cSuB1C85J2qX8xwxoweaqVayYrTbTMRl6bPjXshBU3KkAXBKBMynuHgxw$>, 
> which doesn't use aria-label.
> While looking through the WCAG Techniques, I noticed this statement in 
> ARIA6 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://w3c.github.io/wcag/techniques/aria/ARIA6__;!!GqivPVa7Brio!Je2_N8c42cSuB1C85J2qX8xwxoweaqVayYrTbTMRl6bPjXshBU3KkAXBKBPK-ZjdpA$>, 
> which may need to be modified?
> "Authors should be aware that aria-label may be disregarded by 
> assistive technologies in situations where aria-labelledby is used for 
> the same object."
> Car
>
>     ----- Original message -----
>     From: James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com>
>     To: Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>, "'Gunderson, Jon R'"
>     <jongund@illinois.edu>, 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
>     Cc:
>     Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Accname question regarding self-references
>     Date: Mon, Jan 4, 2021 10:27 PM
>
>     I’m really confused. Value is only part of the accessible name
>     calculation at all in rare circumstances.
>     Again - I’m asking what should be the accessible name exposed by
>     the a11y APIs not what screen readers should read.
>     In terms of what is exposed
>     Safari does (a)
>     chrome now does (b)
>     Firefox does (c)
>     My contention from reading the accessible name spec is that (a) is
>     correct. Aaron disagrees.
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     *From:* Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>
>     *Sent:* Monday, January 4, 2021 7:18:52 PM
>     *To:* James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com>; 'Gunderson, Jon R'
>     <jongund@illinois.edu>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
>     *Subject:* RE: Accname question regarding self-references
>
>     If, and only if, the screen reader reads the value, then the value
>     shouldn’t be part of the accessible name, but if this results in
>     having to wait 5 years for screen readers to accept such a fact,
>     count me out as agreeing with it because the web is hard enough to
>     use already.
>
>     In short, there’s an academic reality here and a practical one,
>     and I am in favor of whatever reality results in ensuring that
>     value gets read out.
>
>     For the record, I don’t like value being part of name, as it is a
>     value not a name, but I, by orders of magnitude, like less that
>     value getting dropped as a consequence of such a wish.
>
>     I hope that makes sense.
>
>     I haven’t coded up the test case for this, but it would be good to
>     see what the top 5 screen readers do right now with that markup.
>
>     Take care,
>
>     Sina
>
>     President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
>
>     Phone: 919-345-3832
>
>     https://www.PAC.bz
>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.PAC.bz&d=DwQF-g&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=7pxjQj6Sn7GadcQXUI8qdHzQ7owon0mR-h863iCnxZc&m=49hT4_cZt1z613uCLngI66DJFYMct9BOjrMww0DU9qM&s=TInaFolT4YRHd_FT2TguqpQfnp3rr_dTeKE2cvbJTTg&e=>
>
>     Twitter: @SinaBahram
>
>     Personal Website: https://www.sinabahram.com
>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.sinabahram.com&d=DwMF-g&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=7pxjQj6Sn7GadcQXUI8qdHzQ7owon0mR-h863iCnxZc&m=49hT4_cZt1z613uCLngI66DJFYMct9BOjrMww0DU9qM&s=m2-eKhqOuW1EJKs_DLVemY_pxb2DwYdAfjPLEYlv1zI&e=>
>
>     *From:* James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com>
>     *Sent:* Monday, January 4, 2021 10:05 PM
>     *To:* Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>; 'Gunderson, Jon R'
>     <jongund@illinois.edu>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: Accname question regarding self-references
>
>     So the question is what should be the accessible name not what a
>     screen reader should read. I’d fully expect the value to read when
>     navigating to the field whatever the accessible name is.
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     *From:*Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>
>     *Sent:* Monday, January 4, 2021 7:02:30 PM
>     *To:* 'Gunderson, Jon R' <jongund@illinois.edu>; James Nurthen
>     <nurthen@adobe.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
>     *Subject:* RE: Accname question regarding self-references
>
>     Jon,
>
>     Yeah, you’re right. apparently I haven’t fully entered work mode
>     for the new year. Plus, this is actually consistent,
>     aria-labelledby overrides aria-label, and the value must be
>     preserved because otherwise all your fields being marked up with
>     errors via aria-labelledby will not be able to tell you what is
>     inside of them. Where this deviates is it chooses value over
>     aria-label when input’s name goes to be calculated.
>
>     So, sorry about that, and I do change my answer to B, although C
>     could be argued for because what this interpretation does is make
>     a self-referential aria-labelledby choose value over aria-label.
>     That works for edit fields, but are there other situations where
>     this results in a suboptimal outcome? I was wondering about
>      simulating grouping, but there’s separate roles for that, as well
>     as you having description and describedby for additional
>     information, so B seems like it may avoid some double-reading there.
>
>     I’m interested to hear what others think, but I do think value
>     should be in there because otherwise lots of forms will be far
>     less usable.
>
>     Thanks for pushing back on this, Jon.
>
>     Take care,
>
>     Sina
>
>     President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
>
>     Phone: 919-345-3832
>
>     https://www.PAC.bz
>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.PAC.bz&d=DwQF-g&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=7pxjQj6Sn7GadcQXUI8qdHzQ7owon0mR-h863iCnxZc&m=49hT4_cZt1z613uCLngI66DJFYMct9BOjrMww0DU9qM&s=TInaFolT4YRHd_FT2TguqpQfnp3rr_dTeKE2cvbJTTg&e=>
>
>     Twitter: @SinaBahram
>
>     Personal Website: https://www.sinabahram.com
>     <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.sinabahram.com&d=DwMF-g&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=7pxjQj6Sn7GadcQXUI8qdHzQ7owon0mR-h863iCnxZc&m=49hT4_cZt1z613uCLngI66DJFYMct9BOjrMww0DU9qM&s=m2-eKhqOuW1EJKs_DLVemY_pxb2DwYdAfjPLEYlv1zI&e=>
>
>     *From:*Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu>
>     *Sent:* Monday, January 4, 2021 9:01 PM
>     *To:* Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>; 'James Nurthen'
>     <nurthen@adobe.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
>     *Subject:* RE: Accname question regarding self-references
>
>     Sina,
>
>     I don’t think something with the name “aria-label” should override
>     a widget “value”.
>
>     If we want to override values, lets create “aria-value” property.
>
>     Using “aria-label” to override values will make a complex and
>     confusing labelling algorithm even more complex and confusing.
>
>     Jon
>
>     *From:*Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>
>     *Sent:* Monday, January 4, 2021 7:55 PM
>     *To:* Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu>; 'James Nurthen'
>     <nurthen@adobe.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
>     *Subject:* RE: Accname question regarding self-references
>
>     I’m thinking A because aria-label overrides input so value no
>     longer matters, but then aria-labelledby takes precedence so it
>     overrides with a reference to the label followed by itself which
>     is labeled by aria-label.
>
>     President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.
>
>     Phone: 919-345-3832
>
>     https://www.PAC.bz
>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.PAC.bz__;!!DZ3fjg!pQ20yRmAU1uapiaO2j8ykCH6OEECxA6dp4Io4QdgkxlFt6b_EX8szDd56lCVxy3ugQ$>
>
>     Twitter: @SinaBahram
>
>     Personal Website: https://www.sinabahram.com
>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.sinabahram.com__;!!DZ3fjg!pQ20yRmAU1uapiaO2j8ykCH6OEECxA6dp4Io4QdgkxlFt6b_EX8szDd56lB37iq9yw$>
>
>     *From:*Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu
>     <mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>>
>     *Sent:* Monday, January 4, 2021 8:34 PM
>     *To:* James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com
>     <mailto:nurthen@adobe.com>>; ARIA Working Group
>     <public-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>
>     *Subject:* RE: Accname question regarding self-references
>
>     My vote is for B “The label the value”
>
>     The aria-label on the input element should be ignored.
>
>     Jon
>
>     *From:*James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com <mailto:nurthen@adobe.com>>
>     *Sent:* Monday, January 4, 2021 7:30 PM
>     *To:* ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org
>     <mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>
>     *Subject:* Accname question regarding self-references
>
>     We are having a debate in a Chrome issue about the following.
>
>     According to the accessible name algorithm what should be the
>     accessible name of the input in the below
>
>     <span id="label">The Label</span>
>
>     <input id="input" aria-label="ariaLabel" aria-labelledby="label
>     input" value="the value">
>
>     Choices
>
>      1. “The label ariaLabel”
>      2. “The label the value”
>      3. “The label ariaLabel the value”
>      4. Something else…
>
>     *James Nurthen (he/him)*
>     *Accessibility engineer*
>
>     T 415 832 2734
>     nurthen@adobe.com <mailto:nurthen@adobe.com>
>
>     Adobe
>
>

Received on Tuesday, 5 January 2021 17:46:59 UTC