Re: Accname question regarding self-references

Agreed with "A".  Value shouldn't be part of the accessible name in this example.


________________________________
From: Carolyn MacLeod <Carolyn_MacLeod@ca.ibm.com>
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 11:53 PM
To: nurthen@adobe.com <nurthen@adobe.com>
Cc: jongund@illinois.edu <jongund@illinois.edu>; public-aria@w3.org <public-aria@w3.org>; sina@sinabahram.com <sina@sinabahram.com>
Subject: RE: Accname question regarding self-references

I would have thought it was A. "The Label ariaLabel".

FYI, Bryan's AccName Prototype Test page<https://whatsock.github.io/w3c-alternative-text-computation/Editable%20Live%20Input%20AccName%20Test.html> says the accessible name is simply "The Label".
I'm not sure whether that's intentional, or perhaps the prototype doesn't handle the self-referential aria-labelledby?

Note that if you want to try the prototype, the id of the element being tested needs to be "test" so I changed James' code a tiny bit, to:

<span id="label">The Label</span>
<input id="test" aria-label="ariaLabel" aria-labelledby="label test" value="the value">

Paste the above code into the second textarea and then click the Paste & Test button.
The accessible name will be displayed in the first textarea.

I thought for sure there was a WCAG Technique for this, but the closest I can find is ARIA9<https://w3c.github.io/wcag/techniques/aria/ARIA9>, which doesn't use aria-label.
While looking through the WCAG Techniques, I noticed this statement in ARIA6<https://w3c.github.io/wcag/techniques/aria/ARIA6>, which may need to be modified?
"Authors should be aware that aria-label may be disregarded by assistive technologies in situations where aria-labelledby is used for the same object."

Car
----- Original message -----
From: James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com>
To: Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>, "'Gunderson, Jon R'" <jongund@illinois.edu>, 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Cc:
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Accname question regarding self-references
Date: Mon, Jan 4, 2021 10:27 PM

I’m really confused. Value is only part of the accessible name calculation at all in rare circumstances.

Again - I’m asking what should be the accessible name exposed by the a11y APIs not what screen readers should read.

In terms of what is exposed
Safari does (a)
chrome now does (b)
Firefox does (c)

My contention from reading the accessible name spec is that (a) is correct. Aaron disagrees.



________________________________
From: Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 7:18:52 PM
To: James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com>; 'Gunderson, Jon R' <jongund@illinois.edu>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Accname question regarding self-references


If, and only if, the screen reader reads the value, then the value shouldn’t be part of the accessible name, but if this results in having to wait 5 years for screen readers to accept such a fact, count me out as agreeing with it because the web is hard enough to use already.



In short, there’s an academic reality here and a practical one, and I am in favor of whatever reality results in ensuring that value gets read out.



For the record, I don’t like value being part of name, as it is a value not a name, but I, by orders of magnitude, like less that value getting dropped as a consequence of such a wish.



I hope that makes sense.



I haven’t coded up the test case for this, but it would be good to see what the top 5 screen readers do right now with that markup.



Take care,

Sina



President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.

Phone: 919-345-3832

https://www.PAC.bz<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.PAC.bz&d=DwQF-g&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=7pxjQj6Sn7GadcQXUI8qdHzQ7owon0mR-h863iCnxZc&m=49hT4_cZt1z613uCLngI66DJFYMct9BOjrMww0DU9qM&s=TInaFolT4YRHd_FT2TguqpQfnp3rr_dTeKE2cvbJTTg&e=>

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From: James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com>
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 10:05 PM
To: Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>; 'Gunderson, Jon R' <jongund@illinois.edu>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Accname question regarding self-references



So the question is what should be the accessible name not what a screen reader should read. I’d fully expect the value to read when navigating to the field whatever the accessible name is.



________________________________

From: Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 7:02:30 PM
To: 'Gunderson, Jon R' <jongund@illinois.edu>; James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Accname question regarding self-references



Jon,



Yeah, you’re right. apparently I haven’t fully entered work mode for the new year. Plus, this is actually consistent, aria-labelledby overrides aria-label, and the value must be preserved because otherwise all your fields being marked up with errors via aria-labelledby will not be able to tell you what is inside of them. Where this deviates is it chooses value over aria-label when input’s name goes to be calculated.



So, sorry about that, and I do change my answer to B, although C could be argued for because what this interpretation does is make a self-referential aria-labelledby choose value over aria-label. That works for edit fields, but are there other situations where this results in a suboptimal outcome? I was wondering about  simulating grouping, but there’s separate roles for that, as well as you having description and describedby for additional information, so B seems like it may avoid some double-reading there.



I’m interested to hear what others think, but I do think value should be in there because otherwise lots of forms will be far less usable.



Thanks for pushing back on this, Jon.



Take care,

Sina



President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.

Phone: 919-345-3832

https://www.PAC.bz<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.PAC.bz&d=DwQF-g&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=7pxjQj6Sn7GadcQXUI8qdHzQ7owon0mR-h863iCnxZc&m=49hT4_cZt1z613uCLngI66DJFYMct9BOjrMww0DU9qM&s=TInaFolT4YRHd_FT2TguqpQfnp3rr_dTeKE2cvbJTTg&e=>

Twitter: @SinaBahram

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From: Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 9:01 PM
To: Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>; 'James Nurthen' <nurthen@adobe.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Accname question regarding self-references



Sina,



I don’t think something with the name “aria-label” should override a widget “value”.



If we want to override values, lets create “aria-value” property.



Using “aria-label” to override values will make a complex and confusing labelling algorithm even more complex and confusing.



Jon





From: Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 7:55 PM
To: Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu>; 'James Nurthen' <nurthen@adobe.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Accname question regarding self-references



I’m thinking A because aria-label overrides input so value no longer matters, but then aria-labelledby takes precedence so it overrides with a reference to the label followed by itself which is labeled by aria-label.



President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.

Phone: 919-345-3832

https://www.PAC.bz<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.PAC.bz__;!!DZ3fjg!pQ20yRmAU1uapiaO2j8ykCH6OEECxA6dp4Io4QdgkxlFt6b_EX8szDd56lCVxy3ugQ$>

Twitter: @SinaBahram

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From: Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu<mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>>
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 8:34 PM
To: James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com<mailto:nurthen@adobe.com>>; ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: Accname question regarding self-references



My vote is for B “The label the value”



The aria-label on the input element should be ignored.



Jon







From: James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com<mailto:nurthen@adobe.com>>
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 7:30 PM
To: ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>
Subject: Accname question regarding self-references



We are having a debate in a Chrome issue about the following.



According to the accessible name algorithm what should be the accessible name of the input in the below



<span id="label">The Label</span>

<input id="input" aria-label="ariaLabel" aria-labelledby="label input" value="the value">



Choices

  1.  “The label ariaLabel”
  2.  “The label the value”
  3.  “The label ariaLabel the value”
  4.  Something else…





James Nurthen (he/him)
Accessibility engineer

T 415 832 2734
nurthen@adobe.com<mailto:nurthen@adobe.com>

[Adobe]