RE: Accname question regarding self-references

If, and only if, the screen reader reads the value, then the value shouldn't
be part of the accessible name, but if this results in having to wait 5
years for screen readers to accept such a fact, count me out as agreeing
with it because the web is hard enough to use already.

 

In short, there's an academic reality here and a practical one, and I am in
favor of whatever reality results in ensuring that value gets read out.

 

For the record, I don't like value being part of name, as it is a value not
a name, but I, by orders of magnitude, like less that value getting dropped
as a consequence of such a wish.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

I haven't coded up the test case for this, but it would be good to see what
the top 5 screen readers do right now with that markup.

 

Take care,

Sina

 

President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.

Phone: 919-345-3832

https://www.PAC.bz

Twitter: @SinaBahram

Personal Website:  <https://www.sinabahram.com> https://www.sinabahram.com

 

From: James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com> 
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 10:05 PM
To: Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>; 'Gunderson, Jon R'
<jongund@illinois.edu>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Accname question regarding self-references

 

So the question is what should be the accessible name not what a screen
reader should read. I'd fully expect the value to read when navigating to
the field whatever the accessible name is. 

 

  _____  

From: Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 7:02:30 PM
To: 'Gunderson, Jon R' <jongund@illinois.edu>; James Nurthen
<nurthen@adobe.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Accname question regarding self-references 

 

Jon,

 

Yeah, you're right. apparently I haven't fully entered work mode for the new
year. Plus, this is actually consistent, aria-labelledby overrides
aria-label, and the value must be preserved because otherwise all your
fields being marked up with errors via aria-labelledby will not be able to
tell you what is inside of them. Where this deviates is it chooses value
over aria-label when input's name goes to be calculated.

 

So, sorry about that, and I do change my answer to B, although C could be
argued for because what this interpretation does is make a self-referential
aria-labelledby choose value over aria-label. That works for edit fields,
but are there other situations where this results in a suboptimal outcome? I
was wondering about  simulating grouping, but there's separate roles for
that, as well as you having description and describedby for additional
information, so B seems like it may avoid some double-reading there.

 

I'm interested to hear what others think, but I do think value should be in
there because otherwise lots of forms will be far less usable.

 

Thanks for pushing back on this, Jon.

 

Take care,

Sina

 

President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.

Phone: 919-345-3832

https://www.PAC.bz

Twitter: @SinaBahram

Personal Website: https://www.sinabahram.com

 

From: Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu> 
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 9:01 PM
To: Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com>; 'James Nurthen' <nurthen@adobe.com>;
'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Accname question regarding self-references

 

Sina,

 

I don't think something with the name "aria-label" should override a widget
"value".

 

If we want to override values, lets create "aria-value" property.

 

Using "aria-label" to override values will make a complex and confusing
labelling algorithm even more complex and confusing.

 

Jon

 

 

From: Sina Bahram <sina@sinabahram.com> 
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 7:55 PM
To: Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu>; 'James Nurthen'
<nurthen@adobe.com>; 'ARIA Working Group' <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Accname question regarding self-references

 

I'm thinking A because aria-label overrides input so value no longer
matters, but then aria-labelledby takes precedence so it overrides with a
reference to the label followed by itself which is labeled by aria-label.

 

President, Prime Access Consulting, Inc.

Phone: 919-345-3832

https://www.PAC.bz
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8ykCH6OEECxA6dp4Io4QdgkxlFt6b_EX8szDd56lCVxy3ugQ$> 

Twitter: @SinaBahram

Personal Website: https://www.sinabahram.com
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.sinabahram.com__;!!DZ3fjg!pQ20yRmAU1
uapiaO2j8ykCH6OEECxA6dp4Io4QdgkxlFt6b_EX8szDd56lB37iq9yw$> 

 

From: Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu <mailto:jongund@illinois.edu> >

Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 8:34 PM
To: James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com <mailto:nurthen@adobe.com> >; ARIA
Working Group <public-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-aria@w3.org> >
Subject: RE: Accname question regarding self-references

 

My vote is for B "The label the value"

 

The aria-label on the input element should be ignored.

 

Jon

 

 

 

From: James Nurthen <nurthen@adobe.com <mailto:nurthen@adobe.com> > 
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 7:30 PM
To: ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-aria@w3.org> >
Subject: Accname question regarding self-references

 

We are having a debate in a Chrome issue about the following.

 

According to the accessible name algorithm what should be the accessible
name of the input in the below

 

<span id="label">The Label</span>

<input id="input" aria-label="ariaLabel" aria-labelledby="label input"
value="the value">

 

Choices 

a.	"The label ariaLabel"
b.	"The label the value"
c.	"The label ariaLabel the value"
d.	Something else.

 

 

James Nurthen (he/him)
Accessibility engineer

T 415 832 2734  
nurthen@adobe.com <mailto:nurthen@adobe.com>