RE: 7-day CfC: notes on option, treeitem, and spinbutton about children presentational - closes 15 June

"The caveats need to be created before changing this. As written today it cannot work."

True, both need to be done together for these two sets of roles for menu and tree constructs. I don't agree that it's sufficient to just scrap the idea for these roles, because that solves nothing and just perpetuates the problem going forward.

This is important enough that it needs to be done for ARIA 1.1

Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com

From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 12:38 PM
To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>; public-aria-admin@w3.org
Cc: ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: Re: 7-day CfC: notes on option, treeitem, and spinbutton about children presentational - closes 15 June


The caveats need to be created before changing this. As written today it cannot work.

On 6/20/2016 12:36 PM, Bryan Garaventa wrote:

"Children are presentational cannot work for treeitem, menuitem, menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio.

These roles are specifically required to have child elements in order to create trees and menus as I detailed in another mail. We cannot add children are presentational to them as it will break every single tree and menu implementation."

This is true in that menuitems can have child menuitems, and treeitems can have child treeitems, however leaving this wide open is still a problem because menuitems cannot have child regions, sliders, checkboxes, buttons, headings, lists, and so on. The same is true with treeitem roles.

It cannot be left wide open like this. So there is still a need to make these children presentational with caveats

Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com<http://www.SSBBartGroup.com>

From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 12:07 PM
To: public-aria-admin@w3.org<mailto:public-aria-admin@w3.org>
Subject: Re: 7-day CfC: notes on option, treeitem, and spinbutton about children presentational - closes 15 June


Yes.

Children are presentational cannot work for treeitem, menuitem, menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio.

These roles are specifically required to have child elements in order to create trees and menus as I detailed in another mail. We cannot add children are presentational to them as it will break every single tree and menu implementation.

Regards,

James

On 6/20/2016 12:01 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
I agree with James on the exception for spinbuttons for touch screen devices.

This went out for CFC last week while I was out on vacation. Other than spinbutton are there any other objections to the rest of this proposal?

Rich

On Jun 18, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Birkir Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com<mailto:birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>> wrote:

"I do not believe interactive widget vs composite widget is the heart
of the issue. For me, the issue is how difficult is it for developers
create structures
with ARIA markup? For authors sake, I would not like to see a
proliferation of roles because the structure content is presentational
vs interactive content
vs complex widget. Hopefully, an author could use a single
recognizable logical role independent of the type of content in the
structure.
"
For me ARIA is primarily for users, not authors.
That being said, I am fine with allowing the plus and minus buttons as
the only non-presentational elements allowed for role="spinbutton".
I am not on board with allowing any other elements.

I am not on board allowing non-presentational elements on the option role.
This is the same role used for <option> elements, and users, through
years of interaction with select / option elemetns, have come to
expect them to be presentational.



On 6/18/16, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com<mailto:jcraig@apple.com>> wrote:


Sorry I'm a couple days late responding to this.

Concerns with making "spinbutton" children presentational:
I don't think spinbutton's children should be presentational until there is
a solution for the ARIA's coverage gap wrt operability. As an example, there
is no good way to make custom sliders accessible on touch screen devices
because there is no way to trigger the increment/decrement events other than
through de facto keypress events (this workaround is not sustainable or
recommended for touch screen interfaces). If the WG makes spinbutton's
children presentational, the same problem will apply. Author's are currently
able to make spinbuttons accessible by using descendant stepper buttons that
are individually operable. (Note: The native stepper buttons on macOS and in
WebKit are implemented this way.)




On Jun 9, 2016, at 6:04 PM, Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org<mailto:cooper@w3.org>> wrote:
This is a Call for Consensus (CfC) to the Accessible Rich Internet
Applications (ARIA) Working Group regarding the following resolution of
the ARIA Working group:

Add editorial note to option, treeitem, and spinbutton roles that their
"children are presentational" status is provisional
Background
This was approved by the participants of the 9 June 2016 teleconference,
and further context is available in the minutes:

https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-aria-minutes.html#item02
<https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-aria-minutes.html#item02>Note this
resolution does not close discussion on the issue of whether these roles
ultimately should have the children presentational restriction, or whether
further engineering is needed, and if so in what time frame. This edit
supports wider review of the topic.
Action
This CfC is now open for objection, comment, as well as statements of
support via email. Silence will be interpreted as support, though messages
of support are certainly welcome.
If you object to this proposal, or have comments concerning it, please
respond by replying on list to this message no later than 23:59 (midnight)
Boston Time, Wednesday, 15 June 2016. For objections only, please copy the
main  <mailto:aria@w3.org>aria@w3.org<mailto:aria@w3.org> <mailto:aria@w3.org> list to allow
technical discussion of the objection to happen there.
Process
This CfC is conducted per the ARIA WG decision policy:

https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy
<https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy>
I am issuing this CfC as acting chair, but Rich will record the formal
ratification if passed.
Michael



--
Birkir Gunnarsson, CPACC
Senior Accessibility Subject Matter Expert | Deque Systems
2121 Cooperative Way, Suite 210
Herndon, VA, 20171

Ph: (919) 607-27 53
Twitter: @birkir_gun


--
Regards, James

[Oracle]<http://www.oracle.com>
James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
Phone: +1 650 506 6781<tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987 1918<tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com<mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
Oracle Corporate Architecture
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065
[Green Oracle]<http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment

--
Regards, James

[Oracle]<http://www.oracle.com>
James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
Phone: +1 650 506 6781<tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987 1918<tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com<mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
Oracle Corporate Architecture
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065
[Green              Oracle]<http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment