Re: 7-day CfC: notes on option, treeitem, and spinbutton about children presentational - closes 15 June

The caveats need to be created before changing this. As written today it 
cannot work.


On 6/20/2016 12:36 PM, Bryan Garaventa wrote:
>
> “Children are presentational cannot work for treeitem, menuitem, 
> menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio.
>
> These roles are specifically required to have child elements in order 
> to create trees and menus as I detailed in another mail. We cannot add 
> children are presentational to them as it will break every single tree 
> and menu implementation.”
>
> This is true in that menuitems can have child menuitems, and treeitems 
> can have child treeitems, however leaving this wide open is still a 
> problem because menuitems cannot have child regions, sliders, 
> checkboxes, buttons, headings, lists, and so on. The same is true with 
> treeitem roles.
>
> It cannot be left wide open like this. So there is still a need to 
> make these children presentational with caveats
>
> Bryan Garaventa
>
> Accessibility Fellow
>
> SSB BART Group, Inc.
>
> bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com
>
> 415.624.2709 (o)
>
> www.SSBBartGroup.com
>
> *From:*James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, June 20, 2016 12:07 PM
> *To:* public-aria-admin@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: 7-day CfC: notes on option, treeitem, and spinbutton 
> about children presentational - closes 15 June
>
> Yes.
>
> Children are presentational cannot work for treeitem, menuitem, 
> menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio.
>
> These roles are specifically required to have child elements in order 
> to create trees and menus as I detailed in another mail. We cannot add 
> children are presentational to them as it will break every single tree 
> and menu implementation.
>
> Regards,
>
> James
>
> On 6/20/2016 12:01 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>
>     I agree with James on the exception for spinbuttons for touch
>     screen devices.
>
>     This went out for CFC last week while I was out on vacation. Other
>     than spinbutton are there any other objections to the rest of this
>     proposal?
>
>     Rich
>
>         On Jun 18, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Birkir Gunnarsson
>         <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com
>         <mailto:birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>> wrote:
>
>         "I do not believe interactive widget vs composite widget is
>         the heart
>         of the issue. For me, the issue is how difficult is it for
>         developers
>         create structures
>         with ARIA markup? For authors sake, I would not like to see a
>         proliferation of roles because the structure content is
>         presentational
>         vs interactive content
>         vs complex widget. Hopefully, an author could use a single
>         recognizable logical role independent of the type of content
>         in the
>         structure.
>         "
>         For me ARIA is primarily for users, not authors.
>         That being said, I am fine with allowing the plus and minus
>         buttons as
>         the only non-presentational elements allowed for
>         role="spinbutton".
>         I am not on board with allowing any other elements.
>
>         I am not on board allowing non-presentational elements on the
>         option role.
>         This is the same role used for <option> elements, and users,
>         through
>         years of interaction with select / option elemetns, have come to
>         expect them to be presentational.
>
>
>
>         On 6/18/16, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com
>         <mailto:jcraig@apple.com>> wrote:
>
>             Sorry I'm a couple days late responding to this.
>
>             Concerns with making "spinbutton" children presentational:
>             I don't think spinbutton's children should be
>             presentational until there is
>             a solution for the ARIA's coverage gap wrt operability. As
>             an example, there
>             is no good way to make custom sliders accessible on touch
>             screen devices
>             because there is no way to trigger the increment/decrement
>             events other than
>             through de facto keypress events (this workaround is not
>             sustainable or
>             recommended for touch screen interfaces). If the WG makes
>             spinbutton's
>             children presentational, the same problem will apply.
>             Author's are currently
>             able to make spinbuttons accessible by using descendant
>             stepper buttons that
>             are individually operable. (Note: The native stepper
>             buttons on macOS and in
>             WebKit are implemented this way.)
>
>
>
>                 On Jun 9, 2016, at 6:04 PM, Michael Cooper
>                 <cooper@w3.org <mailto:cooper@w3.org>> wrote:
>                 This is a Call for Consensus (CfC) to the Accessible
>                 Rich Internet
>                 Applications (ARIA) Working Group regarding the
>                 following resolution of
>                 the ARIA Working group:
>
>                 Add editorial note to option, treeitem, and spinbutton
>                 roles that their
>                 "children are presentational" status is provisional
>                 Background
>                 This was approved by the participants of the 9 June
>                 2016 teleconference,
>                 and further context is available in the minutes:
>
>                 https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-aria-minutes.html#item02
>                 <https://www.w3.org/2016/06/09-aria-minutes.html#item02>Note
>                 this
>                 resolution does not close discussion on the issue of
>                 whether these roles
>                 ultimately should have the children presentational
>                 restriction, or whether
>                 further engineering is needed, and if so in what time
>                 frame. This edit
>                 supports wider review of the topic.
>                 Action
>                 This CfC is now open for objection, comment, as well
>                 as statements of
>                 support via email. Silence will be interpreted as
>                 support, though messages
>                 of support are certainly welcome.
>                 If you object to this proposal, or have comments
>                 concerning it, please
>                 respond by replying on list to this message no later
>                 than 23:59 (midnight)
>                 Boston Time, Wednesday, 15 June 2016. For objections
>                 only, please copy the
>                 main  <mailto:aria@w3.org>aria@w3.org
>                 <mailto:aria@w3.org><mailto:aria@w3.org> list to allow
>                 technical discussion of the objection to happen there.
>                 Process
>                 This CfC is conducted per the ARIA WG decision policy:
>
>                 https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy
>                 <https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy>
>                 I am issuing this CfC as acting chair, but Rich will
>                 record the formal
>                 ratification if passed.
>                 Michael
>
>
>
>         --
>         Birkir Gunnarsson, CPACC
>         Senior Accessibility Subject Matter Expert | Deque Systems
>         2121 Cooperative Way, Suite 210
>         Herndon, VA, 20171
>
>         Ph: (919) 607-27 53
>         Twitter: @birkir_gun
>
> -- 
> Regards, James
>
> Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 
> 987 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com 
> <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
> OracleCorporate Architecture
> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065
> Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is committed to 
> developing practices and products that help protect the environment
>

-- 
Regards, James

Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987 
1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com 
<sip:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
Oracle Corporate Architecture
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065
Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to 
developing practices and products that help protect the environment

Received on Monday, 20 June 2016 19:38:20 UTC