Re: Children are Presentational (again) - new information

Bryan,

Can you please explain how you would create a hierarchical tree if 
treeitem only allows presentational children.

This is the definition of presentational children

"The DOM descendants are presentational. User agents 
<https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-wai-aria-1.1-20160317/#dfn-user-agent> should 
not expose descendants of this element 
<https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-wai-aria-1.1-20160317/#dfn-element> 
through the platform accessibility API 
<https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-wai-aria-1.1-20160317/#dfn-accessibility-api>. 
If user agents 
<https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-wai-aria-1.1-20160317/#dfn-user-agent> do 
not hide the descendant nodes, some information may be read twice."

So taking this, if my treeitem has other treeitems as children 
(completely normal in a tree) a useragent should not expose those 
descendents? This would break every tree.

Regards,

James



On 6/13/2016 12:00 AM, Bryan Garaventa wrote:
>
> So if children are not presentational for widgets that are not logical 
> children in these cases, what are you proposing to happen?
>
> E.G If you allow some based on this logic, what about the following?
>
> <ul role=”menu”>
>
> <li role=”menuitem” tabindex=”0”>
>
> <a href=”http://whatever.com”>My help page</a>
>
> <ul role=”region” aria-label=”Personal Options”>
>
> <li role=”presentation”>
>
> <h2> Options </h2>
>
> <input type=”text” value=”Bryan Garaventa” title=”Full name”>
>
> <button> Edit </button>
>
> </li>
>
> </ul>
>
> </li>
>
> </ul>
>
> I see developers doing stupid things like this every day, and it 
> doesn’t help that the spec is so ambiguous that it actually does not 
> state that this type of thing is not allowed, and it results in 
> totally unusable and inaccessible software.
>
> As I mentioned to Fred, simply not saying that children are 
> presentational for these roles will not solve this problem, because 
> these are not composite widgets according to the spec.
>
> Bryan Garaventa
>
> Accessibility Fellow
>
> SSB BART Group, Inc.
>
> bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com
>
> 415.624.2709 (o)
>
> www.SSBBartGroup.com
>
> *From:*James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, June 10, 2016 12:29 PM
> *To:* public-aria@w3.org
> *Subject:* Children are Presentational (again) - new information
>
> I don't see how we can add children are presentational to
>
>   * treeitem
>   * menuitem
>   * menuitemcheckbox
>   * menuitemradio
>
> treeitems are allowed to have other treeitems (and groups) as 
> children. As such they cannot have children are presentational set.
>
> In a similar way menuitem, menuitemcheckbox and menuitemradio can own 
> menus, menubars and groups and should also cannot have children are 
> presentational set.
>
> -- 
> Regards, James
>
> Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 
> 987 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com 
> <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
> OracleCorporate Architecture
> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065
> Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is committed to 
> developing practices and products that help protect the environment
>

-- 
Regards, James

Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987 
1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com 
<sip:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
Oracle Corporate Architecture
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065
Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to 
developing practices and products that help protect the environment