W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-aria@w3.org > January 2016

Draft Minutes for 28 January

From: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 14:11:18 -0500
To: W3C WAI ARIA <public-aria@w3.org>
Message-ID: <20160128191118.GB8671@opera.rednote.net>

Minutes from the ARIA Teleconference of 28 January are provided below as text,
and are available as hypertext at:



                                                                                   - DRAFT -

                                                      Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference

28 Jan 2016

   See also: IRC log


          Rich_Schwerdtfeger, JF, AmeliaBR, LJWatson, jongund, fesch, Bryan_Garaventa, Joanmarie_Diggs




     * Topics
         1. Draft Decision Policy
         2. Testing
         3. Action 1380 & 1700
         4. Article Feed Proposal
         5. Action 1736
         6. Current Actions
         7. Final Notes
     * Summary of Action Items
     * Summary of Resolutions

   <richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: W3C ARIA Working Group

   <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0146.html

   <scribe> scribe: janina

   <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0146.html

   <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/decision-policy

Draft Decision Policy

   rs: Will be issuing a CfC
   ... ARIA policy is in sync with APA's


   <richardschwerdtfeger> public-aria-test@w3.org

   rs: More coordination still needed but
   ... Above is a test email list/archive for ARIA
   ... Will try to keep test meetings at a minimum
   ... Looking to coordinate with Steve Faulkner and with SVG
   ... We will not be applying host language restrictions in our testing

   mk: Is email list also for those writing test cases?

   rs: Yes

Action 1380 & 1700


   <trackbot> action-1380 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to #presentation should mention aria-hidden vs presentation role on raster and vector images in relation to
   ACTION-1379 -- due 2016-01-28 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1380


   <trackbot> Sorry, but action-1700 does not exist.

   rs: What happens with ARIA-Hidden vs Role=None or =Presentation
   ... Webkit handles differently
   ... Tried adding TAB Index inside an SVG; Didn't work
   ... For now we will treat as a single graphic

   <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0136.html

   rs: Please consider if OK

   jf: Asking about test list -- how to subscribe ...

   mc: I will get it documented

   <Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask about subscribing to that new mailing list - details?

   <AmeliaBR> Amelia's detailed comments: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0148.html

   <MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria-test/

   ab: Wondering whether belongs in HTML Mapping?
   ... HTML clear that image is different from object/iframe
   ... No api for HTML image
   ... Suggesting adding recommendations for UAs to do smart things when authors haven't fully marked up
   ... Would be good to know up front whether an image is supposedly a11y

   rs: That would be an HTML-WG responsibility
   ... Perhaps some guidance rs: Is there timeline for next HTML spec?

   lw: no

   jn: Noting a language nit on vector graphics -- which could be raster

   ab: Treated as object regardless

   RESOLUTION: Accept RS' text with some editorial changes so not specific to SVG image

   <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0136.html

   mk: Still looking at the language -- "refer" seems ambiguous -- Phps ...
   ... We need Amelia's point to be more clearly made
   ... e.g. why all child elements of SVG ignored ??

   rs: Didn't note no keyboard because it's an inert object
   ... We can't get at the children because of how browsers treat the object

   mk: Aren't we saying all children of an object become a static string?

   rs: No, because other browsers don't expose -- so you get nothing

   mk: Can we say what the effect is? Seems so complex now.
   ... Why not simply say "an image is treated as a single object regardless whether it contains child elements"

   rs: That would work

   mk: What do we do with the inverse/ When you want children accessible?

   rs: Read further into the text ...

   mk: Not seeing the text ...

   <richardschwerdtfeger> When the <img> is used to refer to either a raster image (e.g. <img src=‚€œfoo.jpg‚€>) or a vector graphics image <img src=‚€œfoo.svg‚€> it is
   treated as a single entity with all descendant elements being presentational. This is regardless of whether the target graphic has descendant elements that would
   normally be exposed to assistive technologies, such as with an SVG document. Consequently, using a role=‚€œpresentation‚€ or

   <richardschwerdtfeger> role=‚€œnone‚€ on an <img> element is equivalent to using aria-hidden=‚€œtrue‚€. If it is possible to make the descendant elements accessible the
   author SHOULD embed the document directly within the host document without it being referred to by <img>.

   rs: Suggest word smithing on telecon is not best use of our time ...

   mk: Can take to list

   <AmeliaBR> Two main points to cover: an img is a single entity, regardless of type of image file; if you want an image's contents to be accessible, embed using
   <object>, <iframe>, or inline SVG code

   rs: OK. I'll work this up.

Article Feed Proposal

   <MichielBijl> +1

   rs: Looks like we considered everything EXCEPT ARIA-Busy

   <richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-busy

   rs: Here's ARIA-1.0 version ...

   <richardschwerdtfeger> ARIA 1.0 version: https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-busy

   mk: 1.0 didn't make it clear what Busy was for
   ... What's the benefit for AT
   ... Changes intended to remedy that
   ... i.e. while Busy=true, aT may want to avoid making changes to the presentation
   ... Then do a single presentation when Busy clears
   ... We still need to work on what the good handshakes need to do
   ... Also want to make clear that Busy not just for Live regions

   rs: Are changes OK? For 1.1?

   RESOLUTION: Group agrees on MK's changes. Action is complete.

Action 1736


   <trackbot> action-1736 -- Michiel Bijl to Create an attribute to indicate a button is the primary button -- due 2015-12-10 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1736

   rs: Why is not clearing? We agreed to close.

   mc: Usually this happens when attached to an Issue that didn't move

   jd: Believe it's a tracker bug. We've seen it before.
   ... Believe we need to clear, then reintroduce the product

   mc: Hmmm, it's refusing to clear the product!
   ... I can take this off-line

Current Actions


   <trackbot> action-1489 -- Michael Cooper to Propose spec text to limit what aria attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g., aria-label and
   aria-labelledby) -- due 2015-11-12 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1489

   <clown> pressent+ Joseph_Scheuhammer

   mc: Yes, I'll pick up on this ...

   <clown> issue-619

   <trackbot> issue-619 -- ARIA 1.1 should disallow host languages from declaring @aria-label from being declared in direct semantic conflict with a host language
   attribute. -- open

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/619

   mc: 25 Feb


   <trackbot> action-1490 -- Matthew King to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2015-12-03 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1490

   <Stefan> +q


   <trackbot> action-1490 -- Matthew King to Propose spec text edit for issue-610: comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- due 2015-12-03 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1490

   mk: 4 Feb

   <richardschwerdtfeger> ack

   <Stefan> my mic is broken

   <Stefan> regarding the aria.labelledby thing

   <Stefan> we doing larger chains of labelling with labelledby

   <Stefan> if for is prio this will break?

   <Stefan> label for I mean

   <Stefan> so this is not valid for aria-labelledby relationships?

   <Stefan> okay!

   rs: Mine was just an example between ARIA and host ml

   item ARIA-1.1 Requirements Draft

   mc: It's started, but has a ways to go
   ... Exit criteria is further along
   ... We will need requirements at PR stage

   mc 25 Feb


   <trackbot> Sorry, but action-1650 does not exist.

   <Stefan> still pending .. got me


   <trackbot> action-1560 -- Stefan Schnabel to Email list with discussion of on/off value labels (maybe valuetext?) and extending value descriptions to other controls
   -- due 2015-08-27 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1560

   <Stefan> I'm guilty

   <Stefan> 2 weeks ok

   <Stefan> this time for real

   <Stefan> ok


   <trackbot> action-1567 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Fix inconsistencies in linking and styles for properties -- due 2016-01-28 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1567

   jd: Need to check some with Shane

   rs: After CSUN?

   jd: 30 March


   <trackbot> action-1624 -- Michael Cooper to Work with shane to develop publication strategy and solution that would exclude abstract roles for authors -- due
   2015-08-16 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1624

   mc: Editorial, but we agreed ...
   ... It's more Shane than me at this point ...

   mk: Do we need this for CR?

   rs: People were complaining

   mc: Probably before final CR
   ... We can't make major changes between final CR and PR
   ... We need people to be able to say: "This helps me"

   mc 17 March


   <trackbot> action-1632 -- Michael Cooper to Start documentation on how we do aria spec and modules -- due 2015-05-13 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1632

   rs: Don't we have a process for this? Shouldn't it be closed?

   clown: I recall a wiki somewhere ...

   <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIAExtensions

   RESOLUTION: Close action-1632 as complete


   <trackbot> action-1672 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Mark aria-grabbed, aria-dropeffect as deprecated and provide reference definition of derprecated -- due 2015-12-10 --

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1672

   bg: Weren't we going to replace somehow?

   rs: Expecting proposal from jd

   jd: I don't see my action as written currently. Do we need to update?

   mk: Think mc is listed because mc had some specific wording to suggest

   <clown> "This property is planned for deprecation, with a replacement, in a future version of WAI-ARIA. "

   mk: We want to say "Don't use this anymore, we plan to replace it."

   rs: So deprecate -- we plan to replace it

   jd: I'll make a proposal
   ... 4 February


   <trackbot> action-1675 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove list as a superclass of menu and listbox -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1675

   <clown> https://www.w3.org/2015/09/03-aria-minutes.html#item02

   mk: I believe some of what I've been doing is behind this
   ... I also don't recall any substantive objections to doing this
   ... Menus are not lists; Though, all collections are "lists" in a general sense

   rs: Related concept seems appropriate

   DRAFT RESOLUTION: Menus and listbox will not have list as superclasses, but will refer to list as a related concept

   <richardschwerdtfeger> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Menus and listbox will not have list as secondary superclass, but will refer to list as a related concept

   RESOLUTION: Menus and listbox will not have list as secondary superclass, but will refer to list as a related concept


   <trackbot> action-1676 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove directory as a superclass of tablist -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1676

   mk: We should have combined the discussion with above! It's the same

   RESOLUTION: Remove directory as a secondary superclass of tablist


   <trackbot> action-1677 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Remove input as a superclass of scrollbar and select -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1677

   rs: Don't see an issue as long as no inheritance issues
   ... Don't believe "related concept" adds anything
   ... Does have to subclass widget

   mk: Currently subclass of range, which is a subclass of widget

   RESOLUTION: Have scrollbar not subclass input as a secondary subclass

   rs: Let's see who subclasses input when we're all done!
   ... Then we can decide whether we still need input

   jd: Checkbox?

Final Notes

   rs: We need a role of "error"
   ... error messages need to be visible.
   ... I wanted to put this out for consideration
   ... Also, we need to finish up on extended destription
   ... These are discussions from the mapping spec

   mk: So error message couldn't reference a hidden element

   rs: yes

   clown: Not quite ... Relationship doesn't occur until unhidden

   rs: We'll need these details for extended descriptions
   ... Issue is the name computation

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

    1. Accept RS' text with some editorial changes so not specific to SVG image
    2. Group agrees on MK's changes. Action is complete.
    3. Close action-1632 as complete
    4. Menus and listbox will not have list as secondary superclass, but will refer to list as a related concept
    5. Remove directory as a secondary superclass of tablist
    6. Have scrollbar not subclass input as a secondary subclass

   [End of minutes]

Found Scribe: janina
Present: Rich_Schwerdtfeger JF AmeliaBR LJWatson jongund fesch Bryan_Garaventa Joanmarie_Diggs


Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.443.300.2200
		Email:	janina@rednote.net

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:	http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures	http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
Received on Thursday, 28 January 2016 19:11:42 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thursday, 24 March 2022 20:23:18 UTC