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RE: APG Landmark Design Pattern Update and Questions related to Banner and Contenting landmarks

From: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 20:00:05 +0000
To: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>
CC: "public-aria@w3.org" <public-aria@w3.org>
Message-ID: <SN1PR0301MB1535F494CFD4BE3DF5EE278BC6A80@SN1PR0301MB1535.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Interesting…

So, we don’t have a concept of leveled landmarks in UIA. They are all added to the one flat loop in Narrator. Edge will use the same landmark mechanism that Windows Universal Apps (a.k.a Windows Store apps) use. I could ask to add a level, but realistically, it would be a while before I could get that into UIA, Narrator and Edge. I’d also likely encounter a fair bit of pushback, due to complexity and a desire to keep something similar to the F6 loop.

I generally give site and app authors the advice that more than 5 or 6 landmarks is probably too many. Many sites only need main. Many need header/banner, nav and main.

I’m not sure that a drill-in mechanism is needed. It seems quite complex, and like something that would not be usable for most users.  Can you help me understand why it’s a good thing?

Thanks,
Cynthia

From: Matt King [mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2016 1:02 AM
To: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>
Cc: public-aria@w3.org
Subject: RE: APG Landmark Design Pattern Update and Questions related to Banner and Contenting landmarks

Cynthia, that’s exactly what I’ve suggested as an option for one way browsers could treat level 0 landmarks. It could be awesome for kb only users … asuming there were options for visuals to go along with it and that orphaned content blocks were included in the loop. It would extend the value of basic landmarks to everyone and give developers a built-in way to see their landmarks come alive.

I’ve only used the command line in Linux so don’t know if it has an equivalent to the F6 loop. I haven’t seen anything like in OS 10. Even though OS10 has oodles of keyboard commands, it still seems to assume that you use a mouse … or you use VoiceOver keyboard commands as a mouse replacement, perhaps with the voice turned off.

Matt

From: Cynthia Shelly [mailto:cyns@microsoft.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 1:51 PM
To: tink@tink.uk<mailto:tink@tink.uk>; 'Richard Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com<mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>>; 'Gunderson, Jon R' <jongund@illinois.edu<mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>>
Cc: 'Matt King' <a11ythinker@gmail.com<mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com>>; 'James Nurthen' <james.nurthen@oracle.com<mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>>; public-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: RE: APG Landmark Design Pattern Update and Questions related to Banner and Contenting landmarks

One approach I’ve used successfully with long-term Windows users is to say that Landmarks are the F6-loop. In classic Windows apps, you can use the F6 key to jump to big “chunks” of an application, like the toolbar, content area, and taskpane (stuff on the right). Landmarks serve the same purpose. Is there something similar on other operating systems?

I also say that “main” is a skip link.

From: Léonie Watson [mailto:tink@tink.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 3:18 AM
To: 'Richard Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com<mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>>; 'Gunderson, Jon R' <jongund@illinois.edu<mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>>
Cc: 'Matt King' <a11ythinker@gmail.com<mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com>>; 'James Nurthen' <james.nurthen@oracle.com<mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>>; public-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: RE: APG Landmark Design Pattern Update and Questions related to Banner and Contenting landmarks

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:richschwer@gmail.com]
Sent: 09 February 2016 16:19
On Feb 8, 2016, at 11:35 AM, Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu<mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>> wrote:

I am not sure why using the analogy of a “Table of Contents” is getting so much resistance, since it is something that most people can understand and help people to understand what landmarks can do.   I think where the analogy breaks down is that it is not useful when people get into sub sections, so maybe there is a better way to describe the analogy as a “high level table of contents of the content regions on the page”.

I agree with Jon on this. It is a table of contents for the page. People understand that. If landmarks are implemented correctly (everything in a landmark) then you indeed can jump to all content sections of the page.

I'm not so sure that's how people do think about landmarks. I did a straw poll of people from the British Computer Association of the Blind forum, Twitter and the A11ySlackers channel. I asked:

Do you think of landmarks (banner, main, navigation etc.) as a table of contents for the page (y/n)?

Of the 34 people who have responded, 26 said no, 7 said yes, and 1 was unsure. Not extensive research, but suggests we might want to think of a better way to describe landmarks.


Léonie.

--
@LeonieWatson tink.uk Carpe diem


Received on Thursday, 11 February 2016 20:00:44 UTC

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